The OTW: By Fans, For Fans, Open to All

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2019-10-09 23:52:32 UTC

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We believe that creation thrives in community, and that fandom especially requires spaces to exist free from censorship, open to all, and without threat of disappearing. In a world where fan labor is so often exploited, censorship is mandated, and information remains in flux, the Organization for Transformative Works (OTW) aims to create spaces where all are welcome to create, analyze, and preserve. And to do that, we rely on your donations.

The Archive of Our Own's Hugo Award serves as both a celebration and reminder of the importance of fannish spaces where all are free to create, post, and share, but it's only one of the many ways that the OTW serves fandom. Whether you're reading the latest volume of Transformative Works and Cultures or searching through Fanhackers' fan studies bibliography, our research and reference is open and available to all. Through Open Doors and our Legal Advocacy, we preserve fanworks and protect the right to create and share what we love. And through Fanlore, we make sure you can write about it, so that fandom today is remembered tomorrow.

There's no premium level to our projects, nor is there early access to unlock. Everything we do is available for everyone, regardless of who they are and what they do. But the only way we can make this possible is through your generous donations.

In Naomi Novik’s Hugo Award acceptance speech on behalf of the Archive of Our Own, she extended her thanks to everyone who helps make our work possible, from the founders and volunteers through to the users who create, comment, and leave kudos on our works every day. She also thanked our donors, and we'd like to echo that now, and invite you to contribute and help us to continue providing open fannish spaces to all who would create and share. Any donation of US$10 or more will also give you the option of becoming a member of the OTW for the next year, allowing you to help further shape the future of what we do through our annual elections.

Want to celebrate our projects and accomplishments even more? We've got some great thank-you gifts to show off your love. More on those coming soon.

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fillory Thu 10 Oct 2019 12:08AM UTC

Happy OTW Drive! Good luck!

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1. Henryfiemiss Sun 27 Oct 2019 07:09AM UTC
  
  Good luck！
  
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Account Deleted Thu 10 Oct 2019 12:20AM UTC

I love this time of the year because I love supporting you guys and all you guys do. Good luck!

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Wandering_dreamscapes Thu 10 Oct 2019 12:36AM UTC

Cool! Wish I had money to donate

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1. EleiteRanger Thu 10 Oct 2019 02:13AM UTC
  
  Me too
  
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2. 1. EleiteRanger Fri 11 Oct 2019 03:11AM UTC
    
    I tried to trick someone else into donating more.
    
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3. Hightower6327 Fri 11 Oct 2019 01:43PM UTC
  
  Same thing.
  
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4. theonlyoneshetrulyloved Fri 11 Oct 2019 05:40PM UTC
  
  A friend dropped some coins for me.... in return for me beta-reading her new novel she wants to get published so... that's a way possibly if you have writer pals.
  
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YeetTea Thu 10 Oct 2019 12:58AM UTC

Ahh hopefully I can donate soon!

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AuroraWhite Thu 10 Oct 2019 01:03AM UTC

feels good to finally be able to contribute even if its just a bit after years of reading on this site

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finalfragment Thu 10 Oct 2019 01:47AM UTC

I just love you guys OK

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EleiteRanger Thu 10 Oct 2019 02:14AM UTC

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1. EleiteRanger Thu 10 Oct 2019 02:16AM UTC
  
  Hey archiveofourown, I beat the system and left a blank comment. (Please do not patch this bug, it is harmless and funny)
  
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2. 1. Nia (Guest) Thu 10 Oct 2019 08:14PM UTC
    
    How in the name of hell did you even do that lmao
    
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  2. 1. EleiteRanger Thu 10 Oct 2019 08:26PM UTC
      
      (Less than symbol)b(Greater than symbol)(Less than symbol)/b(Greater than symbol)
      
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    2. 1. Hightower6327 Fri 11 Oct 2019 01:44PM UTC
        
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      2. Hightower6327 Fri 11 Oct 2019 01:44PM UTC
        
        It works! Ha!
        
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        EleiteRanger Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:21PM UTC
        
        I'm pretty sure you can use any tag except the p tag.
        
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lovevicley Thu 10 Oct 2019 02:32AM UTC

Happy to be able to donate. I feel very fortunate to have found this by luck. What an awesome forum for all. Hope it continues for many years.

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Mehera Thu 10 Oct 2019 04:30AM UTC

I wish I could donate but yesterday again I found a fic where little boys where raped by an adult and bred for days. The fic had kudos and positive comments....... Until this sort of trash is found on this website, I can’t support it with my money. I love Ao3 with all my heart but this is not okay.

Last Edited Thu 10 Oct 2019 04:30AM UTC

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1. Starra Thu 10 Oct 2019 04:47AM UTC
  
  As disgusting as that is (and I don't agree with it at all), their ToS says they're not going to remove works no matter how horrific they are, unless they're encouraging abuse and violence against real people. So I don't think they're going to do much about it.
  Not saying you have to donate or agree with their policies, just pointing it out. You could try reporting the fic, though I'm not sure how far you'd get...
  The one thing I wish the archive had was a permanent blacklist/filter system so that it wasn't so easy to stumble across such works, but from my understanding they don't have the staff to implement that easily, unfortunately. There's certainly a lot of stuff I don't want to see/read and find highly uncomfortable (what you mentioned included, although I haven't come across the fic myself thankfully) and it puts me off searching for things because you manually have to exclude tags/ships/fandoms every single time :/.
  (Hopefully it doesn't sound like I'm defending the fic you're talking about, because I'm not, I just thought I'd mention what the official stance seems to be and what your potential options are, although you're probably already aware of this lol. Don't mind me.)
  
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2. 1. Mehera Thu 10 Oct 2019 05:06AM UTC
    
    No it's interesting, thank you for your answer. I asked once and someone told me "they don't care at all" but I could not believe it, haha. Now, I know. I get it that sometimes people have some "uncommon" kinks but children should be off limits. I love to read original work but this section is full of it actually. I need to exclude tags better but I wish they would do a little something. Anyway, they will have what they need, Ao3 is to dear to our hearts.
    Have a nice day !
    
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  2. 1. Starra Thu 10 Oct 2019 07:26AM UTC
      
      Yeah, it's disturbing for sure. However, I don't entirely blame the archive for it, as some of it's on the people who choose to write it when they, uh, really shouldn't.
      While I'm against censoring fiction, writing erotica about babies and toddlers is on a completely different level. I've seen fics with baby/child versions of actual celebrities being raped and that's even WORSE (not that any of it is good in any capacity).
      But I think it would, in some ways, be too difficult to try and remove that content. It would have to be done manually, and the archive staff may not have enough members to do so. If it's done through an algorithm (think YouTube taking down videos), it would be a mess and too many innocent (or, er, not-quite-as-horrific-but-still-bad-enough) works would be removed.
      I wish there was an easy answer to this, but I don't know what it would be. I definitely agree with you, though.
      EDIT: I do understand that survivors write things to help confront their trauma, and I don't have anything against them. People can write what they want, but I question those writing actual erotica featuring babies, or real child celebs. I think the fics should be better filtered/hidden, perhaps. Although I do agree with those who are saying that no fictional children are harmed and it's not as bad as hurting real children, don't get me wrong. I just wish I didn't have to see so much of it, I guess.
      
      Last Edited Thu 10 Oct 2019 07:43AM UTC
      
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    2. 1. Curious (Guest) Thu 10 Oct 2019 06:22PM UTC
        
        DA
        I'm just curious, which fandoms are you in that you see so much toddlercon? An RPF fandom, as you mentioned celebrities (celebrities' babies/children)? I ask because I feel like I've yet to come across it in my fandoms (I'm also in RPF fandoms).
        
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      2. Maylinn Mon 14 Oct 2019 04:40AM UTC
        
        I mean I could understand writing something like that to deal with trauma and keeping it private. There really is no reason to then go on to publish it in a public website for other people to “enjoy”. That’s why I’m not a fan of that as an excuse. Plus I’d rather have at least a system to report works like that even if it takes weeks for someone to go in and remove them than just shrugging our shoulders and continue to promote a safe heaven for works like that.
        
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      3. . (Guest) Mon 14 Oct 2019 06:34AM UTC
        
        Ah, yes, that old tried and true therapeutic method of bottling up all your trauma and never sharing it with anyone and never reaching out to other people in your social sphere for validation and support. It would be silly to try and reorganize and reclaim your trauma through FICTION in a SAFE SPACE meant for FICTION. Do you hear that trauma survivors? LadyKiri is NOT A FAN OF THAT EXCUSE! Please somehow go find yourself in a dark corner of the internet where you may never connect with another similar soul and certainly do not take your disgusting healing process onto this website that is SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO PROTECT YOUR FREEDOM TO SHARE YOUR TERRIBLE FICTION. /sarcasm
        And now for something serious: Ao3 is not the place for you, LadyKiri. Goodbye!
        
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        Maylinn Mon 14 Oct 2019 02:52PM UTC
        
        I thought Ao3 was a place for everyone, regardless of different opinions. Or is it just for people who agree with just one mindset. Are we cool with pedophiles and their kiddy porn but nothing different opinions. Interesting. I’m not going anywhere baby. But I will continue to express my own viewpoints just like everyone here.
        
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        (4 more comments in this thread)
  3. antis go away (Guest) Fri 11 Oct 2019 12:07AM UTC
    
    You could try reporting the fic, though I'm not sure how far you'd get...
    HAHAHAHAHA no. AO3 doesn't do censorship. Which is why I and many, many other people are here.
    The one thing I wish the archive had was a permanent blacklist/filter system ...
    Download and install AO3 Savior.
    
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  4. 1. Starra Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:14AM UTC
      
      M8 I'm not an anti. I think people should be able to write what they want. If I fundamentally disagreed with AO3's policy that much I wouldn't be posting my writing here.
      My one thing is that I don't want to see certain things, but that doesn't mean I have anything against the site itself as such.
      I did install AO3 Savior after someone else mentioned browser extensions. For some reason I hadn't considered browser extensions before -- despite having read the FAQ, lol, so that's on me. Not sure why I blanked on that, honestly.
      *Scuttles off in clown shoes, sorry for being dumb*
      
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    2. EleiteRanger Fri 11 Oct 2019 03:05AM UTC
      
      Me: Sees someone else code a comment
      img src="https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/022/506/manofculture.JPG" alt="I see you're a man of culture as well."
      
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    3. lovetheirloves Sat 12 Oct 2019 02:06AM UTC
      
      If a work should be tagged with an Archive Warning (Rape, Graphic Violence, Underage) and isn't, reporting it is the correct course of action and it will be addressed. If the work is properly tagged, then the onus is on the reader.
      
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3. BlackKittens Thu 10 Oct 2019 05:27AM UTC
  
  (Disclaimer: I don't work for Ao3, I'm just another user replying to your comment.)
  You claim to love Ao3, yet are completely ignorant of its purpose and founding. Ao3 was founded in large part to protect and preserve the exact type of fic you described. It was created with the idea firmly in mind that fics would not be deleted or banned just because of the content they contained. Ao3 happily welcomes fics like you just described with open arms, telling the writers of such fic that they will always have a home here. If I remember correctly, it's in the ToS that you have to agree to *in order to create your account* that you may find content you personally find disturbing on this site. Ao3 is also one of the few, if not the only, fanfiction site that goes above and beyond to give you built-in tools to avoid the type of fic you just described so you don't have to see it. Yet here you are, a registered user of what is supposed to be a safe haven for ALL fic regardless of content, telling said safe haven that you refuse to donate until "this sort of trash" is deleted and banned.
  Now, there's no requirement to donate and any reason one has to not donate is perfectly fine, but excuse me if I find your argument here both manipulative and incredibly ignorant.
  (I'll never understand why people so against a major aspect of Ao3's purpose and founding continue to use the site. It just baffles me.)
  
  Last Edited Thu 10 Oct 2019 05:28AM UTC
  
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4. 1. Mehera Thu 10 Oct 2019 05:42AM UTC
    
    I understand that Ao3 should be a safe place. I understand that people can do what they want and love what they want and write what they want too. No need to show me your teeth. I have seen a lot of strange things here and I have never said a word. I just think that some lines shouldn't be crossed. Child rape is trash, I can't find another word to describe it. If this website is a safe heaven for people who loves and write that, well, who am I to judge ? Especially if they have fierce defenders like you.
    
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  2. 1. BlackKittens Thu 10 Oct 2019 05:58AM UTC
      
      It's fiction. It doesn't matter if you think it's trash - you can think it all you want, that's your right, but demanding censorship is not your right. I'll happily continue being a "fierce defender" so long as Ao3 sticks by its stance that all fics are welcome here.
      "If this website is a safe heaven for people who loves and write that, well, who am I to judge ?" I'm so glad we agree!
      
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    2. BlackKittens Thu 10 Oct 2019 06:44AM UTC
      
      All right, I just hit post on my last comment (so if you replied before I've finished this, I haven't seen our reply yet), but you're right - I am showing you my teeth here and I'll admit I might be jumping the gun. You're much more polite than I see most act when they protest Ao3's censorship-free stance, so I'm going to take a step back and try to explain my viewpoint. Apologies in advance if I get defensive, and no, I don't expect you to magically agree with me when I'm done. I just want to explain my perspective a bit more.
      I understand that you find child rape in fiction to be trash, but the arguments that Ao3 ought to ban dark content often A.) completely ignores the many reasons dark content exists, b.) often directly attacks with the intent to harm the individuals the pro-censorship side claims to want to protect, and C.) never stops at what they claim they "only" want banned.
      Please understand that writing or reading such material is not condoning it, no more than being an avid fan of horror movies means one condones murder. While not everyone will create or consume dark fiction, such as child rape or graphic murder, many people like to explore the horrifying and terrible in fiction. Fiction provides a safe place where no one REAL gets hurt. Real children are not being harmed within fics like the one you brought up, no more than anyone is actually being murdered in horror movies. I mean, why is murder acceptable to explore in fiction - not just in horror movies, but anything that includes death - with the notion that no one creating or consuming it supports murder in real life or *is* a murderer in real life, but the same can't be said for other types of atrocities? It doesn't mean you in particular have to like them, seek them out, or can't throw up a little in your mouth when you see them, but please understand that that fic's existence and the support for it doesn't mean anyone involved thinks AT ALL kindly of the thought of real children being attacked.
      Second, while many are simply exploring a dark topic, there are survivors who use fiction as a way to cope with the atrocities that happened to them. I've seen and listened to survivors who have talked about how they use fics like the one you described as a way of coping, as a way of processing what happened to them and just *getting it out of their heads.* Some have said they weren't able to confront the fact that what happened to them was bad at all (a form of denial, sometimes, and other times because they were manipulated, gaslighted, or indoctrinated by their abuser into believing what happened was okay) until they wrote it down and realized, oh god, it WAS bad. Others have turned the abuse into a sort of fantasy (ie there's no moral in the fic itself condemning the acts, or the good guys don't win) as a sort of a, "God, I wish this hadn't actually been bad, because I don't want this bad thing to have happened to me." They know it's bad and don't need to be told; our psyches are just weird like that sometimes. Among plenty of other reasons that survivors have for writing dark content.
      Now, does every survivor do this? No. But many do. Everyone has different ways of confronting and coping with that happened to them. The great thing about fiction is that's a safe place to deal with trauma without hurting another person in real life and gives the survivor the control to say yes, no, go away, okay, I need to stop because I'm getting overwhelmed writing this and have to get up from my computer to breathe. Safety and control are important, because victimization takes those elements away from you. Fiction gives them back, no matter how light or dark it is.
      There is a faction on the internet who shares your belief about Ao3 that will outright ignore and attack survivors when they come out about writing dark fiction like child rape. They claim up and down they're trying to protect survivors, some of them even say they are survivors, but they have NOTHING good to say about those who use fiction in order to cope. At best, they claim those coping don't exist. At worst, they harass them. I've seen survivors get told they should be raped again because they made or liked certain content. Please tell me you don't support someone who was raped as a child being told they should be raped by their abuser again, or their kids should get raped now, just because they wrote or commented on a fic. Please. Because that's where *I* draw a line.
      And lastly, it simply doesn't stop at child rape, or only fics that "glorify" or "romanticize" the topics in question. It always go farther. I've been in fandoms where ships about a consensual relationship between non-related adults are incestuous and pedophilic because it suits the antis' needs. Simply disliking something doesn't get the content they don't like banned, so they steal the argument you're presenting and use it for their needs. An 18 year old and 25 year old who are both Asian, for example? Clearly brothers and the 18 year old is an a child (except in this OTHER ship, where the 18 year old is with a 17 year old, they aren't a kid there, oh no!). Time to start a fandom-wide crusade harassing shippers and demonizing anyone who likes it. Oh, this fic where a character is aged up so sex is between adults, because writing underage sex makes the author uncomfortable? Sorry, you're a pedo anyway. And so on. Oh, and then the conservatives comes along, and conservatives LOVE using arguments about rape, abuse, and underage sex to censor LGBT+ and racial issues. That book that has a gay character portrayed in a positive light and argues no one should be mistreated for the color of their skin? Uh, a kid is raped in that book. Here, we'll ban the book! Oh, that other book that has a kid raped but doesn't have LGBT+ characters or racial issues presented? *Crickets* And this has happened online as well, through the corporations that own fanfic websites. Another reason Ao3 has their anti-censorship stance is because in the past, websites deleted LGBT+ content I'm sure you'd find perfectly acceptable and unproblematic because they wanted rid of all sexual and immoral works - and conservatives always put LGBT+ content of any kind in the same categories as sex, rape, incest, abuse, etc. even if they don't say it aloud (they don't have to say it either, their actions prove it when the content is deleted).
      This is why I'm defensive. This is why I show my teeth. This is why *I* love Ao3 for not censoring and got mad at your comment. I don't expect you to entirely agree with me from reading this comment, but this is where I'm coming from. I'm sorry for jumping the gun.
      
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    3. 1. somali77 Thu 10 Oct 2019 09:48AM UTC
        
        Perfectly said and summarized, thank you so much for taking the time and reminding everyone again of the fundamental reasons to include dark fictional content in the freedom of creating and sharing (fandom - ) art <3
        
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      2. Honeysucle10 Thu 10 Oct 2019 11:21AM UTC
        
        Thank you for taking the time to leave this explanation, this is exactly what was running through my head reading this comments thread and I agree with you 100%.
        Point blank, I hate censorship. Passionately. And that's why I love Ao3. This is the only site that's given me and I'm sure many others here a feeling of having absolute artistic freedom to tell a story exactly as we intend to tell it.
        Also I really want to second that 'enjoying dark fiction doesn't equal condoning it in real life.' It really is the same idea as the whole horror genre. You can enjoy watching someone get sawed to pieces in a horror movie over a big ol bowl of popcorn, but if you witnessed that happen in real life you'd be sick, terrified, traumatized, and trying to get help any way you could. We don't treat horror fans and filmmakers like psychopaths. So let's not treat people who just like twisted stories that way.
        If you see a story with tags that put you off, scroll past it. If it's not tagged and you see stuff in a story that makes you feel sick and lose all faith in humanity, just click the back button. Skim. Skip. Set it down for a while. Whatever makes you comfortable. You always have control over your reading experience. And I'll always vouch for better and more precise filtering, but never censorship of the work itself. In the end we're all here to have fun as readers and writers. So let's just do that, even if it's from totally opposite corners of the archive.
        
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      3. Sh33tMeDead336 Thu 10 Oct 2019 12:06PM UTC
        
        That moment when our passion for fanfiction is so strong it compels us to write literal essays.
        
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      4. sassyseme Fri 11 Oct 2019 06:44AM UTC
        
        Just wanted to say I also read and appreciated your comment, and definitely learned a few things. Wow.
        
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      5. Mehera Sat 12 Oct 2019 06:17AM UTC
        
        Hi ! I had no idea I would stir up a hornet's nest like that. There is so many comments now.
        I didn't respond right away because I needed to digest and to make some research. I found of lot of comments and detailed work about Ao3 and Child Porn actually. It's a real thing and since I don't get involve in drama (except for this time since I created it, damn me) I didn't know. Both side have strong and valid arguments.
        I was just looking for Original Work when I found the fic. I always thought that child pornography was more a dark web problem. I had no idea I could found theses kind of fics here. I couldn't filter it in the tags system because I had absolutely no idea.
        I am in no way pro-censorship. I thought child porn would be off limit that is all. I didn't even know I could trip on it as freely as I did.
        I understand that survivors may use this way to heal or vent or anything they need but aren't they afraid to drawn predator to them or people that might actually harass them ? I have left nothing on the fic I skimmed through and I would never wish for someone be to raped. This is absolutely off limits and in my country I could absolutely go to jail for that.
        I get it why Ao3 is not censoring this kind of contents. I get it why people are defensive now. I read about purges some old websites had been through and how they were controversial. The only thing is, I shouldn't have seen this content if I wasn't explicitly looking for it. I don't know if I can blacklist. I will do some more researches. Sensitive topics shouldn't be hidden (I agree with you) but I don't know, maybe we can meet at the middle and find a way where everybody can feel comfortable.
        I understand your point of view. Thank you for the time you took to answer me. The initial shock was too much and when I saw the banner I lost it, so I can't be mad at you for being defensive. This is how it is on internet where we can't make contact to disengage feelings and explain ourselves right away.
        I can't respond to everyone but I was harsh so I deserve what I got. Some people gave very interesting point of view. Thank you for your input too.
        On it, I'm becoming invisible again.
        
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      6. BlackKittens Sat 12 Oct 2019 07:59AM UTC
        
        Thank you for the response! Again, I'm sorry for jumping the gun and that this has snowballed the way it has. I'm also sorry you found that work; I don't blame you for being disturbed at all. I just got defensive because of previous encounters with antis.
        
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        HopefullyHelpful (Guest) Sun 13 Oct 2019 08:19PM UTC
        
        I pointed commenter Starra at this -
        Regarding blacklists; permanent server or account side blacklisting/filtering isn't going to be feasible any time soon for technical reasons involving... i think cacheing or something? But there are some great unofficial browser-side tools that can do it!
        https://archiveofourown.org/faq/unofficial-browser-tools?language_id=en#triggertools
        If you set up Blurb Blocker or AO3 Savior with a blacklist including terms like you saw in that work's blurb, they'll completely hide other works with blurbs that use the same terms.
        
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        o/ (Guest) Sun 13 Oct 2019 09:12PM UTC
        
        Hi there, just wanted to mention, while AO3 does have some original works, it's mainly a repository for transformative works, so it's not exactly the best place to look for origfic. iirc most people post origfic on wattpad?
        Also, AO3 does have warnings for people who click into fic! If a fic isn't using the archive warnings, it can be reported and the author can be asked to add those tags to the fic, to comply with TOS. And when people click on fics with the appropriate archive warnings, there is a popup which warns about the material which may be there (which, I will admit, can be quite obnoxious when you're browsing for smut and open several tabs at once lolololol)
        In regards to the child porn and AO3, I am personally quite skeptical of what information is out there, since the OTW which runs AO3 has a (volunteer! ~~insert "proof that lawyers have a heart" joke~~) legal team which would definitely be concerned with such matters, especially if it was such a systemic issue as to have incurred a significant amount of documentation, and I personally have been seeing people bringing up this concern for so long that I'm sure it's been brought up with the legal team, and if the actualfax lawyers don't see anything they would consider illegal/actual legally defined child porn on the site, I'd trust their judgment.
        
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        Moon6Shadow Fri 18 Oct 2019 01:18PM UTC
        
        You can filter things out on AO3 without extras since the main archive warning tags allow you to exclude things. When using the filters just scroll down to 'warnings' and click off everything you don't want to see. The main warning tags are:
        No Archive Warnings Apply
        Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings
        Graphic Depictions Of Violence
        Major Character Death
        Underage
        Rape/Non-Con
        If you want a quicker way to filter when searching for fic you could always filter via 'no archive warnings apply'. :)
        
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    4. antis go away (Guest) Fri 11 Oct 2019 12:08AM UTC
      
      LOL. They were too nice to you IMO. You think you get to decide what does and doesn't get hosted on AO3 based on your squicks. Tough shit.
      
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  3. EleiteRanger Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:37AM UTC
    
    For that last paragraph, I'm pretty sure is because this is the best fanfic website I've ever seen. It's tag system is the best I've ever seen, it's comment system allows you to reply to comments so that you can easily tell what is being replied to and it allows you to code your comment, and it's search system is the best I've ever seen. I've been wanting to say this for a long time but it has never come up before. Thank you.
    
    Last Edited Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:42AM UTC
    
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  4. 1. EleiteRanger Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:43AM UTC
      
      Also, the link is to a tutorial on how to code HTML.
      
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5. Diamond_Raven Thu 10 Oct 2019 05:50AM UTC
  
  The whole reason AO3 exists is because we've gone through many purges on other fanfic websites where a loud minority decided that certain fics were 'trash'. In the most recent case, they decided that all fics featuring homosexual content were (as you describe) trash as well as fics that featured pre-marital sex. People's fics and accounts were deleted without warning. That's why AO3 came into existence. The issue of censorship was something that was debated for a long time among the founders of AO3 and the policy they came up with is a result of the many, many discussions they had and it has nothing to do with being pedophile supporters or whatever nonsense the anti-AO3 people like to throw around on Tumblr.
  Drawing a line in the sand for what's 'acceptable' fictional content or not is impossible, because everybody has different likes and dislikes. If we ban any fics that feature child sexual abuse, we'd be banning people from writing about characters who have such abusive histories (no flashbacks) and writing about characters who suffered such an ordeal and how they recover afterwards. I've written stories that featured characters who suffered through childhood sexual abuse and to make their experiences as impactful as possible for readers, I included flashbacks which showed the abuse happening. That abuse impacted the characters for the rest of their lives and by showing the abuse in a graphic way, I was able to make connections in future plotlines that impacted readers more than if I had kept the abuse off-screen (ex. specific things that other characters do which may be innocent but are interpreted in a bad way by the abused character due to the connections to their abuse).
  If you're going to limit child sexual abuse as a topic in fiction, you'd also have problems with canon. What about fandoms that feature characters who have canonical sexual abuse histories (ex. Derek Morgan in Criminal Minds)? Would your ban mean that nobody is allowed to include any flashbacks of that canon event happening? Would characters be allowed to talk about it in passing or would you want a complete ban? What about fandoms that are criminal focused and canon often portrays rapists, including child molesters (like Law and Order SVU)? How would you implement your ban in those fandoms? Would certain episodes be off-limits for writers? And why stop at child sexual abuse? Any abuse of a child is evil and cruel, so would your next step be to ban any child abuse from fics? In fact, any abuse is wrong, so why don't we ban any abuse from being depicted in fics to any character of any age?
  I'm not asking you for answers to these questions, but I'm hoping you'll realize that asking for such a ban is a very difficult proposition and I hope I shed some light on why AO3 will never do it. It has nothing to do with the website staff condoning child sex abuse but instead, it has everything to do with censorship being a very complex and difficult topic. Once it starts, history has shown that it won't stop and that will lead to AO3 becoming a place that most fans won't want to be a part of.
  
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6. JustAGuest (Guest) Thu 10 Oct 2019 06:31AM UTC
  
  Totally agree that fics such as that are gross don't get me wrong, however I think AO3 are along the right path by not censoring these works as I have heard of people who have these kind of kinks who are able to be satisfied with these works, preventing them from acting on their urges. I'm not saying that its right or it works for everybody but I'd rather communities such as those with pedophilloic urges fulfilling them online than going to the real world and taking them out on real people, or by watching child pornography where real children are still being harmed !! It's not the people who run this site who are creating this content, and for every work like that theres a thousand nice ones, so i still think they are worth supporting <33
  
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7. 1. Starra Thu 10 Oct 2019 07:34AM UTC
    
    You don't have an account so you probably won't see this, but the one thing I will say is that AO3 should have some kind of blacklist/permanent filtering system so that people who don't want to see works featuring child rape or pedophilia or whatever else don't have to see them.
    I know you CAN filter things out, but you have to do it manually each search, so it can be a pain. That said, I don't blame that on the archive, as I'm aware they're working on improving things constantly and I'm sure they know it's something people are asking for. It'd be my one wish, I think, as there are many tags I'd love to filter permanently.
    Or perhaps if works have certain tags, like pedophilia, they don't show up in the main search unless you specifically look for them. I dunno.
    
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  2. 1. not JustAGuest (Guest) Thu 10 Oct 2019 04:05PM UTC
      
      Easy solution:
      just bookmark your searches. I have saved bookmarks for a few *dozen* searches across multiple fandoms.
      There is no need to waste valuable volunteer programming hours on something with such an easy workaround. And it would only help signed in users anyway.
      
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    2. 1. flying_mirror Thu 10 Oct 2019 06:13PM UTC
        
        That requires you to only work from one device. I constantly switch between my phone and my pc, making any device bound workarounds not practical. Also, the fact that there is a need for the workaround is a clear sign that something should be improved there. After all, we have the new exclude options even though you could exclude stuff before, we have mark for later and bookmarks even though that could be done through browser bookmarks. Because they make our lives easier and ao3 better.
        I really hope we will be getting a general blacklist feature soon, or whenever they can find the manpower for it.
        
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      2. theway Thu 10 Oct 2019 10:24PM UTC
        
        If your browser supports it, you can enable bookmark sync across your devices. Alternatively, you can save your search URLs to a private post on your blog that only you can access. It isn't as convenient as what you want, but at least you won't have to recreate your custom searches every single time.
        
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        Lucidlucy Fri 11 Oct 2019 12:27AM UTC
        
        Switch to chrome and a gmail account and make sure thats what you use across devices— google will automatically sync all your bookmarks.
        There ARE ways to go about curating your experience until ao3 can finetune it on their end. People just have to be willing to search for them and do the extra bit of legwork
        
        Last Edited Fri 11 Oct 2019 12:33AM UTC
        
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    3. HopefullyHelpful (Guest) Thu 10 Oct 2019 09:49PM UTC
      
      Permanent server or account side blacklisting/filtering isn't going to be feasible any time soon for technical reasons involving... i think cacheing or something? But there are some great unofficial browser-side tools that can do it!
      https://archiveofourown.org/faq/unofficial-browser-tools?language_id=en#triggertools
      
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    4. 1. Starra Thu 10 Oct 2019 10:00PM UTC
        
        Yeah, I figured it wouldn't be that easy to implement. This is interesting though, thank you! I haven't properly looked at the browser tools before but I think I will.
        
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8. fillory Thu 10 Oct 2019 07:09PM UTC
  
  Hey, this isn't addressing your point itself, but in the future, please consider describing the kinds of fic you mention here in less detail—those kinds of graphic scenarios aren't something I wanted to have to confront when I scrolled through a comment section like this. I'm guessing you wanted to communicate your distress at seeing the fic in a way that others would empathize with, and I understand that. But the unfortunate effect was to make me & other passers-by have to think about graphic child abuse this morning—at least in a fic search, I could have excluded Underage etc. from my search, and not have had to read about it unexpectedly.
  I mean this sincerely and in good faith! At least a warning for it at the top of your comment would have helped. Thank you!
  
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9. Rirren Thu 10 Oct 2019 08:42PM UTC
  
  Maybe AO3 is the wrong website for you? There are other fanfiction websites that remove fiction with problematic content.
  Wattpad doesn't allow fiction with:
  - rape
  - underage sex (below 16)
  - necrophilia, bestiality and other illegal in RL sex acts
  - sexual slavery, kidnapping for sexual purposes
  - pornographic content
  Or you could try fanfiction.net which doesn't allow any sexual content, just to be safe.
  Luckily for you, most websites only view sexual things as bad. So you're okay to write slavery and kidnapping as long as there is nothing sexual going on!
  
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10. Caterfree10 Thu 10 Oct 2019 11:16PM UTC
  
  Thanks for being a shitcock. I’m gonna donate an additional $10 to AO3 when I get paid tomorrow in your honor. 💜
  
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11. 1. antis go away (Guest) Fri 11 Oct 2019 12:10AM UTC
    
    Right on!
    
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  2. 0roro_Munr0e Fri 11 Oct 2019 01:26AM UTC
    
    My hero <3
    
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  3. flowersofchernos Fri 11 Oct 2019 06:32AM UTC
    
    op obviously isn't against ao3 or against people donating. you're the one acting like a shitcock 😑
    
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  4. 1. Caterfree10 Fri 11 Oct 2019 11:32PM UTC
      
      If someone's calling stuff that isn't cp cp, then sorry, that's being a shitcock. There are REAL LIFE children being abused RIGHT NOW. Someone writing a story isn't harming children. And I'm gonna take issue with someone equating the two.
      
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    2. 1. flowersofchernos Fri 11 Oct 2019 11:45PM UTC
        
        someone being frightened by pornography involving child rape isn't being a shitcock. i'm into some nasty, fucked up shit, my friend, but i understand that empathy has to come first and foremost. the REASON that people view simulated cp as cp is BECAUSE of children being harmed irl. it's fucking scary! it scares people! and moral panics over seeing simulated cp is a little different than someone having a moral panic over, say, gay porn. you're entitled to your opinion, i suppose, but if they're a shitcock for being reactionary, then so are you for the exact same reason :/
        
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      2. . (Guest) Mon 14 Oct 2019 07:31AM UTC
        
        They are having a panic over the mention of it, ie the tags and summaries. Should we therefore also ban the news? Or, as others have suggested, are we responsible for our own reading experiences and can just not click through to a work? Or should we instead come into a public comments section about fundraising and derail that by claiming the website should ignore the purpose of its creation and cater to sensitive, irresponsible readers?
        
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        flowersofchernos Mon 14 Oct 2019 11:33AM UTC
        
        did my responses hurt you so badly you had to leave this many replies? i'm not saying op is correct, i'm saying the amount of rude replies they recieved is fucked up. i'm a victim and survivor, as well as a fan of darkfic. hell, the darker the better! i'm not saying that we should shut down ao3 or shut down the news 🙄 i'm saying we should treat each other with civility and try harder to understand why the general distaste against darkfic exists.
        you don't make your enemy your friend by shooting him. if we want people to understand ao3 and understand darkfic and understand why censorship against darkfic would be harmful, we have to stop acting like the scary bad internet fiends they see us as.
        
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        (4 more comments in this thread)
        
        Caterfree10 Mon 14 Oct 2019 07:59AM UTC
        
        ...k, just for you continuing to call stuff that isn't cp cp, I'm gonna donate $10 more JUST FOR YOU FOR *ALSO* BEING A SHITCOCK.
        Prose is not CSEM. Full stop. End of. I come across plenty of shit I don't like either. I don't go on to AO3's donation drive posts to complain and cite it as a reason to not donate. I scroll post like a normal human being and move on to shit I DO like.
        
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        flowersofchernos Mon 14 Oct 2019 11:41AM UTC
        
        i'm glad you're donating! i'd be donating hundreds if i had the money. sadly, i am in a bad situation atm with no way to make money, so i cannot.
        i am calling it simulated cp for ease of phrase. i do not believe that darkfic or any other pornography including fictional child rape is on the same level as actual child pornography. if you'd take the time to actually read any of my responses, you'd notice i'm very pro ao3 and very pro darkfic, as well as a victim and survivor of csa.
        please do not reply to me again if you're not going to read my comments. it's rather a waste of both our time. thank you.
        
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    3. . (Guest) Mon 14 Oct 2019 08:27AM UTC
      
      OP is literally against donating to this site. "Until this sort of trash is found on this website, I can’t support it with my money." What are you talking about? You are being a lying "shitcock".
      
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    4. 1. flowersofchernos Mon 14 Oct 2019 11:29AM UTC
        
        op says they don't mind other people donating but they they won't themselves. i'm not a liar for having reading comprehension 😑 just because someone doesn't do something themselves doesn't mean they're full-stop against it. is this seriously still going on?
        
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      2. Maylinn Mon 14 Oct 2019 02:55PM UTC
        
        Because the concept that not everything is black and white is foreign to these people.
        
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12. go away, anti (Guest) Fri 11 Oct 2019 12:05AM UTC
  
  Every time I see antis pissing and moaning on AO3 about "problematic" fic, I donate another five dollars to the OTW. And O resolve to write another noncon underage fic. Thanks for the motivation! (◡ ‿ ◡ ✿)
  
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13. 1. Account Deleted Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:25AM UTC
    
    you're disgusting oh my god.
    
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  2. 1. Kettle (Guest) Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:36AM UTC
      
      Hmmm hmm
      Experiment: 120920 by Lovebattery, MapofMarisoul
      Fandoms:방탄소년단 | Bangtan Boys | BTS
      Explicit, Graphic Depictions Of Violence, Rape/Non-Con
      Tags: Graphic Depictions Of Violence, Rape/Non-Con
      Hypocrite much?
      
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    2. 1. Starra Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:46AM UTC
        
        Every fucking time with these people, I swear
        (Before anyone claims I'm also a hypocrite, my main issue is tagging/filtering, I fully believe in people being able to write what they want, even if I find things disgusting. I worded my previous post badly and was more just trying to offer some help.)
        
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      2. EleiteRanger Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:51AM UTC
        
        They were probably trying to get him to donate money. Also, are aware you can put links in? Just use (less than symbol)a href="(link)"(greater than symbol)(text)(less than symbol)/a(greater than symbol)
        
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    3. Caterfree10 Fri 11 Oct 2019 11:32PM UTC
      
      Ah, another reason to donate $10 more. Thanks for being a shitcock!
      
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    4. 1. EleiteRanger Mon 14 Oct 2019 01:40AM UTC
        
        Getting people to donate seems to have been their goal. So congratulations, you just fell for a trick so obvious that I could tell it was a trick, and I once didn't realize that I could touch the ceiling until I had already been doing it for a while.
        
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  3. EleiteRanger Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:53AM UTC
    
    Underage fics suck.
    
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  4. 1. Antis Suck (Guest) Thu 17 Oct 2019 02:50PM UTC
      
      img src="https://media0.giphy.com/media/uVtVEjAgQHU88T6uIt/giphy.gif?cid=790b76115278f550917d62edaaddfaa03388272d8981b707&rid=giphy.gif"
      
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  5. EleiteRanger Fri 11 Oct 2019 03:03AM UTC
    
    You do realize that you will get people complaining just so you will donate more right?
    
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  6. 1. EleiteRanger Fri 11 Oct 2019 03:08AM UTC
      
      I did.
      
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  7. flowersofchernos Fri 11 Oct 2019 06:31AM UTC
    
    op to the comment thread didnt appear to be an anti, just someone harmed. stop being edgy. i'm against censorship too, but going out of your way to mock people for being triggered or traumatized by violent events doesn't make you a hero. it makes you the asshat.
    
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  8. 1. . (Guest) Sat 12 Oct 2019 03:55PM UTC
      
      OP would have had to ignore all tags and summary and clicked through to the fic itself to know that it had positive comments, so while I agree with you that we shouldn't mock people for being scared, the OP either went out of their way to access a fic that they knew would disturb them, or they are prone to hyberbole and exagerration (and lies) and maybe their reaction can't be taken at face value, and others are responding to that.
      
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    2. 1. flowersofchernos Sat 12 Oct 2019 10:21PM UTC
        
        i consistantly find child rape fics even after filtering... people are bad at tagging. ive actually gone on to the comments of some of these fics to ask for better tagging for the sake of easier filtering. some people even refuse to tag. and then after all that, there's the fact that some people might just struggle using the filtering option (i did when it was first emplemented and even now sometimes make an error, especially on mobile).
        if op was alarmed by it, they might have gone to ask the writer their intentions. i did that when i was younger and alarmed by porn of my traumas. i can't say for sure. i'm not op.
        but if others are responding to potential hyperbole and potential lies, then they are indeed being reactionary and my point stands. its free to be nice, especially when op was perfectly polite, if misled.
        everyone wants to boohoo about how theyre oppressed by the nasty rape victims for being afraid of dark fic but then they'll treat anyone who seems even slightly alarmed by or uneducated about bad fic like crap. antis and anti antis are some of the worst folks in fandom and this entire thing is annoying, so sorry if im coming across as being short or being mean. as a survivor and a bad fic lover and writer, i kind of play both sides, and it's irritating when people get all Fandom Wars-y about it.
        maybe its because im autistic, but i cant see anything wrong with op's original comment - nor the people who responded civilly in opposition. but some people are going out of their way to misread a comment to complain about their own intentions being misread and it'd be funny if it wasn't so pointless
        
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      2. evasive_thoughts (intrusive_plots) Mon 14 Oct 2019 09:19PM UTC
        
        and, again, if a fic doesn't tag properly, you CAN REPORT THAT.
        gtfo using autism as an excuse to misinterpret someone who clearly stated their opinion and intent (to withold funding specifically for lack of censorship). OP made amends in further comments, but also showed their hand - the fic was tagged, OP 'skimmed' (read) the fic, read the comments, and felt offended that, in their country, they could be thrown in jail for even so much as clicking on the link to the fic in the first place.
        still doesn't sound like that's Ao3's problem, at all.
        now, a salient point, because I use this frequently, is the "Author Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings' tag. That's usually a catch-all for someone who doesn't want to put soilers up in their fic, or who is using elements of noncon or underage as plot devices specifically to depict villainy and don't want to attract readers there who are looking for positive or titillating depictions of noncon and underage.
        for this, we could very casually suggest an 'end notes' Content Warning system, where you put the chapter's content tags at the end notes and people who want the preview to avoid their traumatic squicks can simply tab down to the end notes, have a peek, and make the decision if they want to read or not.
        I'm 100% for reader autonomy and being able to decide what you do or do not consume to your own specifications. But OP's comment was not that, it was just a shitty complaint that framed their opting out of donations as if it were some moral grandstand that might change Ao3's minds on content hosting and not, you know, their own personal decision that they could have gone ahead and shut the fuck up about.
        
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        Antis Suck (Guest) Thu 17 Oct 2019 02:44PM UTC
        
        Autism isn't an excuse for being a gullible, concern-trolling, finger-wagging dumbass.
        
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    3. Kari_Izumi Sun 13 Oct 2019 01:23AM UTC
      
      I don't know what mocking you're seeing. This is by far the most civil anti-AO3 discussion I've ever come across. No name calling, no threats.
      I've seen others in this thread suggest ways to get around the filter reset, and even a simple bookmarking across two or more devices is too damn much effort to curate their own experience for some. I don't blame ppl for being crabby for that level of laziness.
      
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    4. 1. flowersofchernos Sun 13 Oct 2019 04:30AM UTC
        
        then you've missed quite a few comments. much name-calling, specifically the comment i was originally replying to calling op a shitcock. tons of condescending comments, tons of assholery across the board. while it's certainly the most civil, that doesn't make it civil.
        
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      2. Kari_Izumi Mon 14 Oct 2019 04:52AM UTC
        
        OP wasn't called a shitcock for not liking squicky thing, but for their idea that fiction is any any way equatible to actual abuse of children...real ones. I am fairly vanilla in my tastes and yet I learned to read tags and click the escape button.
        Again, if you think this is so mean to OP, get tougher skin, find better arguments to convince us that cherry picking what gets censored is ok or find another archive in tune to your 16th century enforcent of morality.
        
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        (6 more comments in this thread)
    5. . (Guest) Mon 14 Oct 2019 08:16AM UTC
      
      They are not being triggered by violent events. They are being sensitive about the existence of something they disagree with. It is not the archive's job to prevent them from being "harmed". That is their own issue to deal, perhaps by not seeking out this website or ignoring this website's ToS or warning systems.
      
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    6. 1. flowersofchernos Mon 14 Oct 2019 11:49AM UTC
        
        you don't know if they're being triggered by violent events. i have been this entire comment thread, but it's a COMMENT thread, so it cannot be read through text unless i say it openly.
        people are scared of child rape. that isn't really debatable. even if they aren't triggered by personal events, society at large is still pretty openly alarmed by child molestation. where op is coming from doesn't really matter in the end, because my whole point is that attacking someone for saying "hey this thing is scary and bad" is a worthless endeavor. people should be responding with kindness and reasoning. that is what brings positive change.
        
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      2. . (Guest) Mon 14 Oct 2019 12:06PM UTC
        
        Ah, I think we are diverging on what we think the OP is responding to. I am saying the OP is responding negatively to the existence of fictional material on a fanfiction archive. You are equating that fictional material to the exitence of real life violence that the OP is/has encountered elsewhere. This foundamental difference is why we can't understand each other. You seem to be asking for people to treat OP with kid gloves for being frightened of something happening off of the archive, and the rest of us are feeling our freedom of speech or our "gross" identities or our safe space/archive being attacked, and we have in various ways responded thusly.
        
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        flowersofchernos Mon 14 Oct 2019 12:12PM UTC
        
        i don't see treating someone with empathy and kindness as treating them with "kid gloves". you are looking at the small picture (your personal feelings) while i am looking at the big picture (making broader social change through understanding).
        i don't see liking darkfic as a "gross" identity. i am kinky, i am a dyke, i am a lot of "gross" identities, if we see it that way, and i don't think we need to hide them in order to have conversations in a civil way with those that oppose us - especially those that oppose something harmless. we can instead teach them it is harmless.
        my initial responses on this thread were probably rude, i'm now realizing, but it was also from trying to tell people to just fucking be nice. i get that it's the internet and "be nice" are two forbidden words, but attacking someone who opposes you (and being condescending and apathetic towards real life violence) does not help your case (nor does it help mine)
        we are literally on the same side here. but if you are kind to people, they can see your side and thus join you.
        this is my final response on this thread. i apparently have very thin skin, because this has all made my trauma haunt me full force and i can't handle it any more. have a wonderful day.
        
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14. Nona (Guest) Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:30AM UTC
  
  Have you tried not clicking on stories tagged with rape or underage? Just a thought.
  
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15. Kari_Izumi Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:34AM UTC
  
  I hate to break it to you, but this sort of thing has always been around in fandom. You don't have to to.like it, because I sure as fuck don't, but I remember the dark days when people barely had warnings for anything of this sort. I'm incredibly grateful for the tools to curate my experience and that "trash" writers are encouraged to utilize those tools. It make skipping over that content much easier.
  (And if you want a pure, clean archive, the code is right there on GitHub free of charge. Also, Dreamwidth Comms. There's so many things you could do if you wanted more than just virtue signalling.)
  
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16. Dia (Guest) Fri 11 Oct 2019 09:08AM UTC
  
  Do you have a link to the fic, maybe? ^_^
  
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Im_Kuell_Gremlin Thu 10 Oct 2019 07:27AM UTC

what is OTW?

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1. Qem Thu 10 Oct 2019 07:41AM UTC
  
  The Organization for Transformative Works (OTW) is a nonprofit organization run by and for fans to provide access to and preserve the history of fanworks and fan cultures.
  They are the group of volunteers who run archive of our own.
  
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Account Deleted Thu 10 Oct 2019 08:00AM UTC

i would donate, but my currency isn't in dollars

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1. flying_mirror Thu 10 Oct 2019 03:15PM UTC
  
  You can still donate. I'm not sure how it works with the other payment methods, but paypal takes the amount I donate, translates it into my local currency and books that from my account. Super easy.
  
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0roro_Munr0e Thu 10 Oct 2019 01:04PM UTC

Donated. Thanks for all that you do! <3

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EleiteRanger Thu 10 Oct 2019 04:48PM UTC

You guys raise money insanely fast.

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1. Kari_Izumi Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:40AM UTC
  
  The last record I saw was two days, but I think they might hit their goal before midnight PST where I live, to be honest. Even for AO3 this is amazing work ❤️
  
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(Previous comment deleted.)
1. EleiteRanger Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:56AM UTC
  
  Go into the comments for this announcement and complain about the right things to the right person.
  
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SeaOfBones Thu 10 Oct 2019 07:30PM UTC

Donated for the first time! So happy to be a part of this community

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Blue_skeleton6289 Thu 10 Oct 2019 09:29PM UTC

I want to donate so bad but I cant right now. Let's hope my pay check comes in soon.

Last Edited Thu 10 Oct 2019 09:29PM UTC

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sybilius Thu 10 Oct 2019 10:44PM UTC

Yay!!!! \o/ congrats again Ao3 looking forward to donating!

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journaliry Fri 11 Oct 2019 12:47AM UTC

So happy to see that you all already raised so much money!
Great work to everyone volunteering and donating!

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LokiLiesmith Fri 11 Oct 2019 04:00AM UTC

Hey, is there a possibility to donate without giving out really all of your personal information? Paypal perhaps?

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1. Karen Wolf (OTW_DevMem) (Official) Fri 11 Oct 2019 02:54PM UTC
  
  We appreciate your need for privacy, but your contact details are safe with us; our use of your information is governed by our Privacy Policy. Please also be aware that we have no way or desire to connect your fannish identity to your real life identity. Our donor files exist in their own format, inaccessible to all but four Development and Membership staffers and one Finance staffer, and are not linked to any user accounts you may have on AO3 or other OTW websites.
  Should we not require details like name and address (which we're legally obligated to acquire from all donors who become members), PayPal would still provide them due to the nature of how their service operates. Even if you completely bypassed our donation platform and donated to our PayPal account, it would provide the details you gave to PayPal when completing the transaction or registering an account. While we definitely appreciate your need for privacy, there is no real way to donate anonymously online.
  As we cannot trace the origins of a physical donation without a mailing address, you are welcome to send cash or a money order (USD) to:
  Organization for Transformative Works, Inc.
  228 Park Ave. S. #18156
  New York, NY 10003-1502
  USA
  We really appreciate your willingness to reach out to us and we hope we can find a way to accept your donation.
  Best,
  TCD
  Development & Membership
  Edit: Minor html.
  
  Last Edited Fri 11 Oct 2019 03:00PM UTC
  
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2. 1. LokiLiesmith Sat 12 Oct 2019 06:50AM UTC
    
    I see! Thank you very much for the reply, and your OTW work. Also, learning never stops (I had no idea about PayPal sending out info to donatees).
    
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Account Deleted Fri 11 Oct 2019 10:32AM UTC

So sorry I can’t donate!! I luv this site and I hope it grows to gain more people and a bigger reputation! 💖 🙏🏻

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