Call for Feedback on Category Change Proposal

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2013-09-18 16:55:38 UTC

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The Category Change Workgroup is excited to share its proposal changing the way fandoms are categorised on the Archive, and we are looking for your feedback!

Our goal is to change the current fandom categories into something that balances complex, sometimes competing, factors such as diverse fannish traditions, user behavior (current and potential), and ease of browsing. You can read about the concerns that brought the workgroup into existence and some more information on the workgroup in our introductory post.

Right now fandoms on the archive are sorted into media categories - Anne of Green Gables - L. M. Montgomery can be found under Books & Literature for example, and fandoms that fall under multiple categories are listed under multiple categories.

Under the proposed system, media categories are one of three attributes that fandoms will be sorted by and browsable under. The other two attributes are country of origin and source language. Anne of Green Gables - L. M. Montgomery would have the attributes Canada and English. Like with the current media categories, fandoms will be able to have more than one country or language. The guidelines for how the country and language attributes are assigned to fandoms will be made by the Tag Wrangling Committee.

The proposed media categories have subcategories. Fandoms can belong to multiple categories and subcategories. Fandoms may also belong to a category but none of its subcategories. That subset of fandoms that belong to a specific category but none of its subcategories will be viewable.

The proposed media categories and subcategories have been named with the idea of that name being easily understandable to different people.

Proposed Media categories and Submedia categories

Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art

* Anime & Manga
* Bande Dessinée
* DC
* Films
* Manhwa
* Marvel
* Webcomics & Webseries

Audio & Music

* Albums & Songs
* Audio Plays & Spoken Word

Books, Literature & Lore

* Myth, Folktales & Religion
* Novels, Novellas & Short Stories
* Poetry

Games

* Board Games
* Tabletop Roleplaying Games
* Video Games
* Visual Novels

Live Action Films, TV Shows & Other Productions

* Films
* TV Shows
* Webseries

Performing Arts

* Ballet & Dance
* Theater & Musicals

Real Person Fiction

* Actors
* Bands & Musicians
* Political & Historical
* Sports

Other Media

* Paintings, Sculptures & Related Art Forms

So, Anne of Green Gables - L. M. Montgomery would belong to the media category Books, Literature & Lore and the subcategory Novels, Novellas & Short Stories. It will be findable under those media categories as well as its language and country attributes. Users will be able to browse fandoms by combining these attributes to find, for example, Books, Literature & Lore fandoms that have Canada as a country of origin. Users will also be able to search for a fandom by typing its name into a search box on the main fandoms page that will replace the current media page.

Each fandom on the archive will have a landing page that will include a list of its attibutes (media, country, language), a link to its page on Fanlore (if the page exists), and a link to its works and bookmarks on the archive.

Layout Changes

Mock-ups have been created to illustrate how finding a fandom on the archive will work when this new system is implemented. This is not a finalised lay-out of the new page.

Figure 1: The Initial State of the New Fandom Page (Click to enlarge)

There is a small selection of fandoms initially displayed on the page including fandoms that have recently experienced activity, and fandoms that are currently popular on the archive. Above these fandoms is a search box labelled "Search for a fandom" as well as three tabs labelled "Media Type", "Language of source", and "Country of source".

Figure 2: Media Category Dropdown (Click to enlarge)

When the "Media Type" tab is selected, the small selection of fandoms originally listed is replaced. In their spot all of the media categories are listed and submedia categories are displayed as buttons beneath their respective categories. Alongside each media category's subcategories are the buttons "All" and "No Submedia". The number of fandoms belonging to each subcategory is displayed in brackets on that subcategory's button. Beneath "Performing Arts" one finds "All (1287), No Submedia (71), Ballet & Dance (412), Theater & Musicals (23)". (The numbers used in this mock-up are not accurate.)

Figure 3: Submedia Display Page (Click to enlarge)

When a specific submedia is selected, a small selection of fandoms in that submedia category is displayed - fandoms with recent activity and fandoms that are currently popular on the archive. On the header for the submedia, the option "show all [count] fandoms" is displayed.

So, for example, Who Framed Roger Rabbit (1988) is a fandom that would belong to the Films submedia category of Live Action Films, TV Shows & Other Productions as well as the Films submedia category of Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art. El Eternauta will belong to Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art but none of its subcategories.

Please tell us!

There is a Category Change FAQ that has been prepared for this announcement and may answer some basic questions that you may have.

Two subsets of fandoms not yet categorised in the proposed new system are WWE-type Wrestling and Anthropomorphic.

1) Wrestling is under the current fandom categories as Other Media. Are you in Wrestling fandom? Do you think it belongs in Other Media? Real Person Fiction? Performing Arts? Real Person Fiction and Performing Arts? Let us know.

2) Anthropormophic is also currently under Other Media. Do you think it should stay there or does it belong with the proposed Real Person Fiction subcategories under a Real Life category?

Those are two areas that we're particularly interested in feedback on, but we of course welcome feedback on all aspects of the proposal.

The Category Change Workgroup will be reviewing all of the feedback and making (or not making) adjustments to the proposal in response to that feedback. There may or may not be another public review period, depending on how the proposal is altered because of the feedback. Once the Category Change Workgroup has finalised the proposal it will be sent to the Board for approval.

We want your feedback on this proposal. Please leave a comment on this post or contact us through the Category Change contact form.

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MonicaOP Wed 18 Sep 2013 09:01PM UTC

Hi, well, I like the way thing are now, I don't think there is a need for a change on categories!!
I hope you keep it as it is, otherwise it will be a pain to learn to search everything again!! Be well

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1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:44PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  Thanks for your feedback! I've recorded it, and we will take it into account in our discussion.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change
  
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Makoyi Wed 18 Sep 2013 09:09PM UTC

Okay, that sounds great if you're browsing for new fandoms, but it seems like an awful lot of steps if you're just checking in with what's new in your usual fandoms. It seems like more steps even than the current, which is a lot already. I mean, I would almost have to bookmark my usual fandoms separately (which would seriously take up my whole bookmarks toolbar) because otherwise I'd have to click through a bunch of sorting to find it or type in and search for each of them. Any chance we could get the feature to pin our own top fandoms to the (logged in) fandom page instead of or in addition to seeing recent and popular ones listed?
Also, about the sorting of fandoms, I don't know if this is at all helpful, but TV Tropes has a "Namespace Map" and a Media Categories list that they use for sorting the different canons. Obviously, their "works" are not 100% the same thing as fandoms and we don't have to do the same sorting system, but it might be something to look at for ideas.

Last Edited Wed 18 Sep 2013 09:31PM UTC

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1. DarkExperience Thu 19 Sep 2013 02:42AM UTC
  
  Agreed. These days, when I want to check my favourite fandoms I simply go into my bookmarks and click on the fandom tags of my recent bookmarks because that's shorter than going the traditional route. That's not a bad thing. I mean, my system works well enough for me. But the site actually being able to remember my favourite fandoms the way you propose would be amazing!
  
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2. perdiccas Thu 19 Sep 2013 03:35AM UTC
  
  I love the idea of being able to pin my favourite fandoms instead of the list being what's most popular at the moment (maybe that can be the default for people who don't pin any favourites? With an option to turn it off altogether for people who just want to jump directly to the A-Z list). Because at the moment if I want to read Nikita fic, for example, I have to go to the fandoms drop down - select TV Shows - click N and scroll to find it. Under the new system, I'd have to wait for the fandoms browse thing to load because it's no longer a drop down - scroll to TV shows which is a grey box blob under Live Action (less intuitive, visually harder to see because of the awkward layout) - wait for a list of currently popular/most active fandoms to load (a useless page for me because it doesn't contain anything I'm interested in and makes it take longer to achieve what I'm trying to do. Also counter intuitive because I didn't click on "What's most popular in TV Shows?", I clicked on "TV shows" expecting a list) - presumably select N and scroll to find (presumably because there's no screenshots up of this stage of the process). All of which is fine when I want to browse - well, apart from the most popular splash screen, I don't think that should be in the mix - but when I know what I want to see, it's a super long process to get there. The ability to pin our faves would greatly reduce frustration and be more efficient. (Entering the fandom name in the search bar doesn't help unless you remember the exact format of the fandom tag. Nikita is actually called Nikita (2010) or Nikita (TV 2010) or something I wouldn't remember off the top of my head, just searching Nikita gives you anything where that name turns up.)
  
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3. 1. busaikko Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:08AM UTC
    
    It looks as if the "Search for Fandom" box would be useful in this case -- assuming that it only returns the names of fandoms. In which case you would be able to select either Nikita (TV show), Nikita (film), or Nikita (comic), for example. It would -- hopefully! -- not return tags ("OFC - Nikita, Harry Potter's Daughter", "I want Nikita's shoes") or summaries ("Sherlock liveblogs while watching Nikita.")
    
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  2. Carmarthen Fri 20 Sep 2013 10:38PM UTC
    
    Seconding this!
    
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4. sylvaine Thu 19 Sep 2013 07:48AM UTC
  
  I love the idea of being able to pin your favourite fandoms to the top of the fandom page!
  
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5. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:44PM UTC
  
  Hi!
  The feature to pin up fandoms has been requested separately (you can look at it in our Feature Requests Board: https://trello.com/c/8wXok7XO), and has been approved for development.
  Thanks for the links and your feedback! I've recorded it for our ensuing discussion.
  Best,
  hele
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Bluealbertaskys (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 09:51PM UTC

K.I.S.(S.)
That's always the best way to go!
K.I.S.(S.) - for anyone who doesn't know - stands for Keep It Simple (Stupid - don't think that bit applies to anyone here).
The vast majority of your readers are going to know the fandom they want to read about by name. The vast majority of us don't care that Sherlock is British, we just want to read Sherlock fanfic. We know that it is a t.v. programme based on a series of books so the only thing we need to look up to find it is the "t.v. series" (and potentially "books") section(s) where it should be listed like it is at the moment.
I, for one, never remember if Battlestar Galactica is Canadian or American and to be perfectly honest to me it doesn't matter. I only know (and care) that it is a t.v. programme (and I think it was turned into comics at one point) that I've watched, liked and want to read fanfic of. And that's all I need.
I can't think of anyone who would want to spend half an hour jumping through hoops just to read a fic they've forgotten to bookmark! Whichever way to find that fic again is the easiest will always get my vote. So, for example, unless the fandom/fic I'm looking for is popular enough at the time to automatically show up in that list you were talking about of "favourite fandoms"/"most popular fandoms"/stats etc., it's going to be incredibly frustrating clicking twenty links every time to get to the fandom/fics I'm looking to read.
I suspect I wouldn't be the only one frustrated by it either.
Having said that, you already have something similar to what you're proposing anyway (with the page of categories and the fandoms with the most popular works/fics in the box underneath each category name), and also an easy way to bypass it by just clicking on the category name which then takes you to the list of fandoms that category contains, so if you've already got it why are you looking to change it? (Sorry, not meaning that to sound obnoxious, I'm just wondering.)
So yeah, K.I.S.(S.) will get my vote (that also applies to tags too).
P.S. Forgive my ignorance but what are "Live Action Films"? Films are films (or movies if you prefer), regardless of if they are Toy Story, The Incredibles or Harry Potter. Why is there a need to separate them? I can understand separating T.V. shows from cartoons as that is how it has always been (and changing habits of a lifetime like that is confusing and unsettling as other people are pointing out re various things in the comments) but once a continuous progamme reaches an hour and a half to two hours or more in length it's generally considered a film/movie regardless of the medium it's produced in.
K.I.S.(S).
Just my two...okay five, pence worth. Hope this kind of feedback is what you're looking for :).

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1. Bluealbertaskys (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 09:55PM UTC
  
  Aaargh. Just realised I can't edit my comment because I'm not properly registered here yet.
  I meant to edit where I put "A vast majority". By "A vast majority" I'm going by my own experiences and should probably have phrased it as something like "As far as I am aware" instead.
  I'm sure someone will pull me up on that if I don't correct myself :(.
  
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2. 1. Bluealbertaskys (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 09:59PM UTC
    
    Or maybe I should have rephrased it as "In my opinion". *Sigh* :(/
    Sorry :(.
    
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  2. Account Deleted Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:00PM UTC
    
    Here's an account creation code, if you'd like one.
    
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  3. 1. Bluealbertaskys (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:51PM UTC
      
      Thank you, thank you, thank you! :D.
      I'll get myself signed up properly now :D. I read a lot on this site but I read somewhere there was a queue for these so I decided to wait to sign up for one instead of adding to the workload at the time... and then got into the habit of reading without commenting which is bad of me I know :(.
      Thanks again :D.
      
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    2. 1. Account Deleted Wed 18 Sep 2013 11:05PM UTC
        
        Any time! ♥
        
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3. Janie (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:19PM UTC
  
  "The vast majority of your readers are going to know the fandom they want to read about by name."
  But not everyone wants to read only specific fandoms. I want to be able to browse for similar themed fandoms I might be interested in. Right now there's only a huge list of random works that might or might not be something I want to read. Being able to browse an entire sub-category would be wonderful for me.
  
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4. 1. Bluealbertaskys (Guest) Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:42PM UTC
    
    "But not everyone wants to read only specific fandoms." True and good point, sorry.
    "I want to be able to browse for similar themed fandoms I might be interested in." Good point, maybe having the programmes classed under their genres, too, would help that. But, for the moment, isn't that what the tag system is for?
    If you want to read only coffee shop AU's (for example) regardless of fandom, there's already a tag for that I believe. There may be tags already for genres such as Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Romance etc too but I'm less sure about that as I generally read by fandom. As long as the tag system is up to scratch it should then be easy to find whatever it is you're looking for.
    Admittedly as a user I believe the tag system here needs a bit of an overhaul so that they do what they were designed to do and make it easy to find fics (imo there are a lot of superfluous tags/tags which don't have anything to do with the actual story/don't make sense), but that's a different discussion/section to what this post is about.
    
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  2. 1. Janie (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:59AM UTC
      
      "If you want to read only coffee shop AU's (for example) regardless of fandom, there's already a tag for that I believe. "
      I love those and use them all the times. Here I'm specifically talking about finding different fandoms, not tropes. For instance, right now I can't see what other Audio Plays & Spoken Word type fandoms are on the archive unless I know their name.
      
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5. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:43PM UTC
  
  Hi!
  The changes we’re making are intended to add some flexibility to the current system by offering more ways to search and browse fandoms. We hope that the search field and the main media categories will allow users who know where they’re going to still get there easily.
  We will consider your suggestion for removing the extra click to reach the fandom list when finalizing the design.
  Best,
  hele
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Mekina Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:15PM UTC

I do most of my fic reading (and therefore archive browsing) on my phone. It's a basic phone, the most advanced function it has is Wifi (no Iphones or Android or anything, very simple) so it's already complicated enough to browse the Archive on it. I'm worried this will make it even MORE difficult. :/

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1. majoline Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:55AM UTC
  
  +1 I have problems browsing the archive on my Nook, let alone my poor phone.
  It'd be nice if there was a mobile version? Also, the archive is unwieldy in browsers like Lynx as well.
  
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2. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:41PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  I'm sorry for the difficulties you encounter navigating the Archive! We will, of course, attempt to make it as accessible as possible on all devices we can, although unfortunately it will never be possible for us to fully support every device.
  Best,
  hele
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busaikko Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:56PM UTC

1. "No Submedia" should be "Other". Calling something "No Submedia" sounds as if things in that category will be "things without submedia", whatever that is. It does not sound at all like "Other", despite meaning that.
2. Will you be replacing the entry page (http://archiveofourown.org/)? The welcome message is nice, but it would be nicer to land on the top page and see something useful: perhaps, under a 2-line Welcome header, the Fandoms breakdown currently on http://archiveofourown.org/media.
3. In the cap http://transformativeworks.org/sites/default/files/CatChangeImage2.png, the main fandom headers are hard to read (could be bolded and larger), and the tiling layout of the subcategories is visually confusing. Two even columns underneath would be easier to read.
4. It would be massively useful to have a 2-3 line "blurb" section at the top of each Submedia page answering common questions -- for example, in "Novels, Novellas & Short Stories", have the blurb state how canonical tags are written so people don't inadvertently overlook their fandoms, or in "Anime & Manga" explain how names are written (Original | Romaji | Translation (Manga or Anime), I believe).
5. "Audio Plays & Spoken Word" seems awkward: would "The Shadow" radio serial be in this category, as well as non-fiction radio programs ("Car Talk"), podcast fiction like "Welcome to Night Vale", and non-fiction podcasts like "The New York Times Book Review"? Or is it just for things like the Dr Who Audio Plays, which historically were released on physical media (records and CDs)? I wonder how many people looking for "Night Vale" will click on "Audio Plays & Spoken Word".

Last Edited Wed 18 Sep 2013 11:00PM UTC

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1. Account Deleted Wed 18 Sep 2013 11:08PM UTC
  
  3. The headers definitely should be larger. Maybe they can have a background color to make them stand out more?
  4. I definitely wouldn't think to look for WTNV under "Audio Plays & Spoken Word" if I weren't familiar with AO3's categorization structure. I'd look under Other Media, see it wasn't there, and go somewhere else.
  
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2. teaberryblue Thu 19 Sep 2013 01:50AM UTC
  
  Just chiming in that I agree with #1.
  
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3. musikurt Thu 19 Sep 2013 03:38AM UTC
  
  1. Agreed that "No Submedia" comes across as meaning something very different than "Other", especially when the list of subcategories is very limited to begin with.
  
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4. majoline Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:58AM UTC
  
  5. Audio plays aren't the same as a radio show and adding spoken word (spoken word what? poetry? there's already a poetry section) just makes me wonder what exactly is meant to go under that header.
  I wouldn't look for Night Vale there, that's for sure.
  
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5. sylvaine Thu 19 Sep 2013 07:54AM UTC
  
  I think #4 is a fantastic idea. It'd help people unfamiliar with the Archive to know where to look for their fandoms.
  
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6. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:41PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  Using ‘other’ to indicate fandoms which don’t belong to a submedium raised concerns about the perception that ‘other’ categories refer to leftovers or misfits, which is not the case here - submedia are intended as a way to narrow the fandom list in specific ways, not as a comprehensive set of divisions of a category with only odds and ends left over. However, we appreciate your feedback about the name being confusing, and we’ll take it into account.
  Deciding where this structure is placed in the Archive's site map is not under our purview, though we will pass on your suggestion to the appropriate parties.
  The images are mock-ups, not screenshots. As such, they've not been done to decide on the final look for the feature, but rather to illustrate how it will work.
  All those fandoms you mentioned would be included in the Audio Plays & Spoken Word category — we have recorded your feedback regarding the name!
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change
  
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7. 1. Nonny Quixote (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:19PM UTC
    
    I'm moved to say that your belief that how the page looks is somehow separate from how it works is a big red flag.
    The design cannot be separated from the function on a website. If you try to do that, you get a site where the chrome trips the user and prevents them from doing the tasks they want to accomplish. Which is what you've shown in your mock-up.
    People are not telling you it's not pretty enough for them, they're telling you it won't function like this, no matter how good a basic idea the new categories are (and I think they are a very good idea).
    At this stage of the development of this feature you *should* have a very clear idea of how the pages will look because that is inseparable from how they are designed and coded in the back end and how a user will experience and use them.
    You are, after all, talking about a part of the site that is 100% user interaction interface.
    
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  2. 1. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:25PM UTC
      
      Hi Nonnie Quixote,
      We’re still finalizing the basic categories, and aren’t at the coding stage yet, so we welcome feedback about both the form and function of the proposed design. So far there appears to be a clear preference for an A-Z fandom list to be displayed immediately upon selecting submedia and a feeling that the buttons in the Figure 2 page are unwieldy. If you have suggestions for better ways to deal with selecting submedia, please let us know.
      Best,
      Lady Oscar
      AO3 Category Change Workgroup
      
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  3. Anony (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:55PM UTC
    
    Please also pass the suggestion to have the lists as one fandom per line, left aligned (or right if the user interface ever gets the option for rtl languages), one column or two columns, or even better browser-depended columns. Yes, that may suck for the IE nonnies but should work for everone else, including small screen users.
    None of this jumbling several fandoms onto the same line, no long empty spaces because the section next to it has more tags.
    Font size no smaller than the default and not setting a hard default.
    
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  4. 1. LadyOscar (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:25PM UTC
      
      Hi Anony,
      Thank you for your feedback. We’ll pass it along to the design and coding team!
      Best,
      Lady Oscar
      AO3 Category Change Workgroup
      
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  5. busaikko Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:32PM UTC
    
    Thank you for your response.
    I feel I have to strongly voice continued objection to "No Submedia". A quick Google search shows that "Submedia" is not an English word: it's the name of several companies (http://www.submediaworld.com/submediaworld/Tunnel_Advertising.html [company overview: http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=1431562], http://www.submedia.nl/index.php?module=project& ). Many, many people will not understand what you mean; Google will not help.
    Additionally -- and more importantly -- it does not convey the information you wish to convey. Taking it to pieces (sub + media), my first thought was, "Fandoms with no subsidiary media? I guess that means no DVD extras? or maybe no sequels? possibly no tie-in novels or video games?..." My second thought, after seeing at the top the Country and Language of origin, was, "Ah! Works which have not been translated! From 'no subtitles', perhaps." (I am a native English speaker, should that matter)
    Other is not perjorative; Other is actively helpful. Other is a neutral term meaning "Those fandoms not included in the named subcategories here." I have no idea which people found Other to mean "leftovers or misfits", but I highly doubt their perception is universal. I've seen "Other" proposed by other commenters to this post who were likewise baffled.
    
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  6. 1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 10:23PM UTC
      
      Hi,
      Your objection has been recorded, thanks! We do hope we can find something everyone can live with and find at least moderately intuitive.
      Best,
      hele
      AO3 Category Change Workgroup
      
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Naraht Wed 18 Sep 2013 10:59PM UTC

One initial point. (I may come back later with more thought-out comments.)
Where would opera fit under performing arts? It is certainly not a type of dance but neither is it theatre or musicals.

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1. sarken Wed 18 Sep 2013 11:16PM UTC
  
  I think that's where this comes in: Fandoms may also belong to a category but none of its subcategories.
  I'm thinking opera would be under Performing Arts but not under either the dance or theatre subcategories -- in terms of structure, it would be kind of like when you open a folder on your computer and see both more folders (the subcategories) and files (the fandoms that don't fit under the subcategories).
  
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2. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:39PM UTC
  
  Hi, Naraht!
  As sarken says, any fandom that doesn't fit into one of the established subcategories will just be contained in the category, and there will be a way to get all fandoms not in a subcategory.
  Best,
  hele
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3. Carmarthen Fri 20 Sep 2013 10:50PM UTC
  
  I'm confused at the suggestion that opera isn't theatre.
  Opera consists of dramatic performances, right? Which would fit fine into the umbrella definition of 'theatre', and there's a blurry continuum between opera, operetta, and musicals anyway (the last of which is definitely a subcategory of theatre--I agree with the commenter elsewhere baffled by the implication here that musicals aren't theatre and ballet isn't dance). And sure, some operas have ballet, but some prose plays have dance interludes, so I think categorization would have to go by overall type of performing art.
  (I guess I'd object less to "Theatre & Musicals" if it were "Prose Theatre & Musicals", but I don't know that "prose theatre" is a standard term in English.)
  
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Lanna Michaels (lannamichaels) Wed 18 Sep 2013 11:10PM UTC

2) Anthropormophic is also currently under Other Media. Do you think it should stay there or does it belong with the proposed Real Person Fiction subcategories under a Real Life category?
I'm not sure about Other Media, but it shouldn't be in RPF.

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1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:39PM UTC
  
  Hi!
  Thanks for your feedback, we have registered it and we will take it into account in our ensuing discussion.
  Best,
  hele
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ane Wed 18 Sep 2013 11:32PM UTC

As a DC wrangler, I don't like the organization of the subcats for the Animation etc. category. I don't think DC and Marvel should be separated out. My suggestion would be more like this:
* Animated Films
* Animated TV Shows (or Cartoons)
* Anime & Manga
* Bande Dessinée
* Comics
* Graphic Novels
* Manhwa
* Webcomics & Webseries
Also, I really dislike the focus on 'popular fandom'. I think the page structure should go 1) categories and subcats 2) fandoms in alphabetical order. Maybe have the ability to order the fandoms page by how many works posted for those who want the popular fandoms on top.

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1. teaberryblue Thu 19 Sep 2013 01:51AM UTC
  
  This sounds perfect to me.
  
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2. majoline Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:59AM UTC
  
  +1
  
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3. Subarukun Thu 19 Sep 2013 11:48AM UTC
  
  I like that suggestion and it looks less confusing, too!
  Also, I really dislike the focus on 'popular fandom'. I think the page structure should go 1) categories and subcats 2) fandoms in alphabetical order. Maybe have the ability to order the fandoms page by how many works posted for those who want the popular fandoms on top.
  I agree with this. I think the focus on popular fandoms should be optional. What I really want is a page with the categories and subcategories and the ability to easily get to the alphabetical lists of fandoms.
  
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4. lawless Thu 19 Sep 2013 01:51PM UTC
  
  Second the last point. And I think I agree with the first one, too. Maybe the separation of DC and Marvel is based on volume? Because it doesn't make sense otherwise.
  
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5. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:38PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  Thanks for your feedback! We will take it into account in our following discussion.
  If you have any suggestions for a 'comics' subcategory name that makes its content clear (makes it explicit that it doesn't contain manga and manhwa, for example), please do let us know.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change
  
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6. 1. lawless Thu 19 Sep 2013 05:11PM UTC
    
    Those of us in the anime and manhwa fandoms already know "comics" doesn't include it, especially if there are already anime/manga and manhwa categories.
    
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  2. 1. troisroyaumes Thu 19 Sep 2013 05:20PM UTC
      
      But it's still not immediately clear if "comics" is intended to mean U.S. comics only or includes stuff like Filipino komiks (which do already exist on the Archive but probably not in high enough numbers to warrant being their own subcategory).
      
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    2. 1. lawless Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:34PM UTC
        
        Admittedly, I wasn't thinking about that, so make it clear -- either denote "comics" as "US comics" and leave non-US non-manga non-manwha without a subcategory (per the proposal) or put it in a catchall category, whether it's called Other, Catchall, or whatever. And yes, I think inclusiveness has gone amok when every instance of the use of the word "other" to mean "uncategorized" is considered othering. (Not aimed at you but at some of the official responses above.) One solution is simply to use a different term, like catchall, uncategorized, or not otherwise categorized.
        
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      2. lilacsigil Fri 20 Sep 2013 12:42AM UTC
        
        I'm not sure why "comics" wouldn't include stuff like Filipino komiks - there's many non-US comics that nonetheless fit into these categories (though I think it's arguable whether Argentinian comics are more like comics or Bande Dessinée). And if you're saying "US comics" you're leaving out things like Marvel UK, 2000AD, Judge Dredd, Baker Street, FreakAngels, Ginger Meggs etc. even though I see no functional difference between them and "comics". (I'm a Marvel and assorted other comics wrangler.)
        
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    3. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:29PM UTC
      
      Hi,
      Some users intuitively understanding ambiguous names does not in general hold for all users (or all cases, as troisroyaumes points out below). If we do include a plain Comics or Cartoons category that is intended to hold only some comics and cartoons (like only USA comics and cartoons, or only English language cartoons) we will likely make that explicit to avoid confusion.
      Best,
      hele
      AO3 Category Change
      
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    4. 1. ane Thu 19 Sep 2013 11:28PM UTC
        
        Personally, I think that if it's called a comic that it should go in the comics category no matter what the country of origin. I'd be perfectly happy seeing Canadian or Filipino comics in the comics subcategory with the DC and Marvel stuff. We're not separating out US tv shows vs British tv vs German tv; they're just tv shows.
        On one hand it seem that people want manga in the category title to emphasize that the category doesn't just include American comics and animation, but then in the subcategories 'comics' is considered ambiguous and it needs to be made explicit that it means American comics. It's always seemed very contradictory to me.
        
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      2. briar_pipe Fri 20 Sep 2013 01:00AM UTC
        
        Honestly? I know this is likely to cause some people to explode, but as a wrangler of a large number of manga, I don't think we need an "Anime & Manga" subcat if we're planning to have country-of-origin data. I agree with you that these categories should be about format, and the debate over whether yon-komi or other Japanese forms 'count' as manga is just one I never want to dip into here on the archive.
        Since a fandom can belong to multiple subcats, I would happily take my tiny fandoms and add them to both 'Animated TV Shows' and 'Comics', then mark them as being of Japanese origin. That will also hopefully forestall the inevitable hue and cry over whether Avatar is anime or not.
        
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        (8 more comments in this thread)
        
        hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Fri 20 Sep 2013 02:03AM UTC
        
        Hi,
        You have to remember there is no clear group of users that wants both A and B, which happen to be contradictory. The workgroup is attempting to balance the feedback from many different users and groups of users, some of whom have competing interests and preferred solutions.
        Though it's clear that no solution can make everyone happy, our goal is to find the best possible compromise, which is one of the reasons we have made several feedback rounds and talked with many different people.
        Best,
        hele
        AO3 Category Change Workgroup
        
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7. aurilly Thu 19 Sep 2013 10:18PM UTC
  
  2) fandoms in alphabetical order. Maybe have the ability to order the fandoms page by how many works posted for those who want the popular fandoms on top.
  +1 That's much better than using real estate on 'popular' fandoms.
  
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8. lilacsigil Fri 20 Sep 2013 12:45AM UTC
  
  I'm a wrangler of many Marvel comics and some others, and agree that we don't need a DC and Marvel categorisation at this level. Ane's categories seem functional, inclusive and broad.
  
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Phoebe_Zeitgeist Wed 18 Sep 2013 11:45PM UTC

Is there going to be a way to opt out permanently from all the splash screens? I can imagine those being efficient for people who'll normally be looking for the newest work in the biggest/most active fandoms, but it's a lot of screens to have to hack our way through for those of us who're never interested in those big popular active fandoms, but would like to be able to either go directly to a small one or be able to browse through a non-weighted list.

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1. supergreak Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:08AM UTC
  
  Instead of bookmarking the home page, I just bookmark *my* home page - archiveofourown/users/yourusernamehere.
  That way, I can see my inbox on the left hand side, and since I post/bookmark in the fandoms I read the most, I can get to those links quickly.
  I agree that an A-Z list would be great, though, especially for browsing smallish fandoms.
  
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2. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:37PM UTC
  
  Hi!
  We will likely reconsider the issue of the splash screens, as the feedback has been pretty uniformly negative. However, we can't promise there will be ways to avoid them completely if they're implemented, as there are other considerations at stake, such as providing an alternative that can mean the full list is not called every time (saving server hits).
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change
  
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3. 1. Ermigoa Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:03PM UTC
    
    We will likely reconsider the issue of the splash screens, as the feedback has been pretty uniformly negative.
    I really hope these things will never exist - it feels like unnecessary hoops to make people jump through if they don't happen to be into the fandom-du-jour. Not very welcoming, you know?
    
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  2. 1. Anony (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:59PM UTC
      
      Now we only would need to know whether the fandom du jour users or the small fandom user are in the donatable majority and which of them should be pandered to to maintain the archive.
      
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samjohnsson Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:07AM UTC

honestly, for certain media types, "recently active" and "currently popular" might as well be hard-coded, so I'm not sure what use they will be - a true "random fandom" would be a better list in my mind. I would much rather see a linear list, there. all sorts of design thoughts regarding over-chroming the submedia box in pic 3, too, and how the box in pic 2 will stay open or close or how it will all change.

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1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:36PM UTC
  
  Thanks for your feedback! We have recorded it. ;)
  
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Meroko (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:31AM UTC

1) Cartoons and Comics are missing from the Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art (ugh, such a large name) subcategories.
I'm also a little confused as to why DC and Marvel deserve to have their own subcategory, and even if they do, why there isn't a "Comics" or "Other Comics" one for comics that aren't by DC or Marvel/a specific country that does need its own subcategory.
2) Maybe it's because English isn't my native language, but I find the "No submedia" subcategory confusing. Wouldn't be better to rename it as "Other Performing Arts", "Other Real Person Fiction", etc.?
Or the "No submedia" is not really a "Other" subcategory but has another use?
3) When I click a category or a subcaterogy, I always expect to see a A to Z list instead of starting with whatever it's popular or active.
I do get popular/recent active lists are liked by many, but they work better as their own section instead of being the most prominent part of the categories/sub-categories.
4) And... this is a small thing, but the "Language of source" and "Country of source" are really needed? It's just to seem to me something extra that some people may like, but at the same time is not that useful?
Maybe I'm missing something, though.

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1. Account Deleted Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:38AM UTC
  
  2) "No submedia" is also really confusing from an English-as-a-first-language perspective, so it's not just you. It's just not an intuitive phrasing at all.
  4) Language and country of the source could be useful for people seeking out, say, specifically J-Dramas and K-Dramas, which are pretty popular subsets of live action.
  
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2. 1. Meroko (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:50AM UTC
    
    4) Oh, I see. Now it makes sense.
    But then I have to wonder, if Manga, Bande Dessiné and Manhwa have their own subcategories, won't also be more practical for J-Dramas and K-Dramas to have their own too under Live Action instead of needing to resort in a country/language filter?
    
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  2. 1. Account Deleted Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:54AM UTC
      
      Yeah, you'd think. It's a very double standard kind of thing, and I think a result of inclusivity gone wild -- which is not a thing you'll hear me say often. "Bande dessiné" is just French for "drawn strips". "Anime" is just Japanese for "cartoons", "manga" is just Japanese for "comics" -- having "Anime & Manga" as a category makes sense, because of how closely related the two media are, which unfortunately necessitates using the Japanese terms, but is it really. Necessary. To have every single language's different translation of "cartoon" or "comic book" or whatever included, when there's going to be a filter for searching by country or language of origin?
      Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on you, I just had to get that off my chest.
      
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    2. 1. Meroko (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 01:22AM UTC
        
        You don't have to apologize, I get that frustration at the double standards that always appear.
        TBH, I can get the need of doing that if the list of "Comics" is so long that it'll be better for both the servers and maybe even the users to divide it in subcategories if it's possible.
        But, then why using two different ways to organize two categories?
        Despite my own preferences, I would prefer if one method was picked and be done with it. Anything else can make navigating the media categories and subcategories more confusing instead of easier, which should be the goal of all this changes.
        
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3. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:35PM UTC
  
  Hi, Meroko!
  We're not planning to have every subcategory we could have, nor are we considering it from the 'does this group of fandoms deserve to have a subcategory' angle, but rather we're trying to think of those that would divide fandoms into useful browseable lists. We're planning to be conservative when adding subcategories, as the number can quickly get unwieldy.
  Many fans requested country & language as parameters to help them subdivide and browse the fandoms. We've tried to design a sufficiently flexible structure that will allow you to avoid them if it will not be useful for you or they're inapplicable to the fandom(s) you're looking for.
  Thanks for your feedback, we will take it into account when drafting the final proposal.
  Best,
  hele
  Category Change Workgroup
  
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4. 1. Meroko (Guest) Fri 20 Sep 2013 12:51AM UTC
    
    Hi and thanks for taking the time to answer.
    I do have to point I wasn't suggesting creating all the possible subcategories, but creating some that can actually be helpful and I do thing separating Comics and Cartoons instead of mixing them in the No submedia would make easier to browse those kind of fandoms (far more than Bande Dessiné and Manhwa, which have less fandoms here and yet their are proposed as subcategories).
    
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  2. 1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Fri 20 Sep 2013 02:01AM UTC
      
      Hi,
      Not all subcategories listed will necessarily exist — the numbers have yet to be run on how many fandoms each potentially has, and the ones we will end up heavily depend on that.
      We will be reconsidering the Comics and Cartoons subcategories after this round of feedback.
      Best,
      hele
      AO3 Category Change
      
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LadyLazarus Thu 19 Sep 2013 02:19AM UTC

I want to refer you to this essay:
http://books.google.com/books?id=UgZsi_DOKoQC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=archontic+literature+fanfiction+and&source=bl&ots=DC-H3eSoU7&sig=ZeC5m5NwaQMyK6SagLqRELpeov0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=S146UpK9JeTYyQGs1YD4Aw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=archontic%20literature%20fanfiction%20and&f=false
Which speaks on the archontic nature of literature. I might propose that as an ideology for regarding this layout change firstly. I think the categories are fine, but then you have things like Harry potter or Count of Monte Christo that exist in multiple media forms. Maybe within selection of a fandom, you should take a cue from Fanfiction.net and have users choose between a "world"? Though we as fans, actually call them verses (universes, rather than "worlds") so that those that wish to submit works derived solely from movie or solely from a book, or indiscriminate of the two (or more) can do so.

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1. DarkExperience Thu 19 Sep 2013 03:04AM UTC
  
  If I understood correctly these new categories are going to work like tags. So one fandom can be in several categories. Let's take Tomb Raider as an example. It started out as a video game series but there are also movies, novels, comics, board games, an animated webseries, etc. So you would not only be able to find Tomb Raider in the video games category but also in the movies, comics, novels, etc. categories and it would all be the same fandom (not separate fandoms the way it is now).
  Although I guess that would bring new problems with it if you're looking for fan works of just a specific part of a fandom (like just the Tomb Raider movies or just the comics). It would also bring up the question of where to draw the line. For example, would BBC's Sherlock be a fandom of its own or just part of the general Sherlock Holmes fandom? I mean, it's both. So you'd ideally need sub-fandoms, really.
  
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2. 1. supergreak Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:14AM UTC
    
    Even with cat change, meta/sub fandoms will still be there. So under "Sherlock Holmes and Related Fandoms", you will always be able to find the separate landing pages for Sherlock (TV), Sherlock Holmes (Downey Movies), Elementary, Great Mouse Detective, and every other permutation you can imagine.
    So if you want the broad category you can choose that, but if you want something nitty-gritty, you can browse under that, too.
    That won't change with Cat Change. Those individual pieces will just have different labels - instead of "Books & Literature", the ACD novels will be in "Novels and Novellas".
    
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  2. 1. DarkExperience Fri 20 Sep 2013 08:03AM UTC
      
      Ah, I thought people had to specifically choose "Sherlock Holmes and Related Fandoms" when creating a fic in order for it to show up there. But if that's not the case, then it's all fine :).
      
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3. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 10:25PM UTC
  
  Hi, Lady Lazarus!
  Thanks for the link.
  When the fandom in question considers it necessary, the Archive has split fandom tags for different versions, with one metatag or metafandom tag that can bring results for all of the subfandoms. This usually takes the form of 'Fandom Name - All Media Types', though sometimes they're just 'Fandom Name'.
  Both in the current system and the proposed change, metatags would be placed in all appropriate categories: all media and submedia applicable, all country and language applicable to their subtags.
  You can read more about the Archive's tagging system here: http://archiveofourown.org/archive_faqs/10
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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Emily (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 03:55AM UTC

If this category change goes through, does that mean that existing fiction that is currently in the wrong category will be transferred into the correct group? I notice that with two or three particular archives of fandoms that I read that there are sometimes fanfics based in movies or other fandoms that end up in my fandoms' archives that have nothing to do with any of the characters or plots.

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1. Account Deleted Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:50AM UTC
  
  Sadly, no. AO3 is all about freedom of writerly expression, which includes the writer ~expressing~ themselves by mistagging their fic.
  
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2. 1. Janie (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 05:12AM UTC
    
    You say this like it's a bad thing. As someone who came here from ff.net, I love that it doesn't feel like a police state. My friends feel comfortable posting here, knowing that if they make a mistake they won't be suspended or banned. People have nicely left comments, and those that actually made mistakes fixed them, others who deliberately tagged "wrong" had a chance to explain why they tagged the way they did. Just because you think something is tagged "wrong" doesn't mean it really is.
    
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  2. 1. Account Deleted Thu 19 Sep 2013 05:24AM UTC
      
      Staff fixing the tags on a Pokemon fic that's tagged "X-Men", or stopping people from putting in "DirkJake" as their fandom name, would not make the site a police state. Hyperbolic much?
      Not that I'm saying they should, since I know they're not going to -- it's a lost cause. But police state? Seriously?
      
      Last Edited Thu 19 Sep 2013 05:43AM UTC
      
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    2. 1. Janie (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:59PM UTC
        
        From what I understand, you can already report stories that are tagged completely wrong to Abuse and they'll change them. Since this is the case, I was assuming that you were talking about stories that aren't tagged with the more "correct" fandom according to certain people.
        From the previous page I see you are a volunteer. So far my experience here has been great, with everyone being very friendly. It's disappointing my first contact with a staffer was so disappointing. I hope other staffers aren't as unhelpful as you've been.
        
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      2. Account Deleted Thu 19 Sep 2013 10:02PM UTC
        
        I don't fall under the "staff" umbrella. I'm just one of the volunteers that has to deal with works that exhibit this sort of creativity in their tags.
        I can assure you it isn't my intent to be unhelpful or unfriendly; I'm simply speaking my opinion. Thank you for doing the same; I'll take it into account.
        
        Last Edited Thu 19 Sep 2013 10:07PM UTC
        
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3. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:27PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  This will not affect works, as it will not affect fandom tags themselves at all (will just add to the information attached to them, such as country of origin, language of source, and submedia and media categories). It's just a change on how these will be searchable and browseable.
  What tags are applied to works, and the actions the Abuse team can take about them are entirely the purview of the Content Workgroup and the Abuse Committee. They will be posting about any change to the Terms of Service as usual.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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baranduin Thu 19 Sep 2013 04:28AM UTC

A couple of critiques around the visual display.
1. I see no purpose in displaying currently active/recently active fandoms, especially since so few are displayed. You seem to be taking a cue from other, non-archive based web sites that appropriately show what's currently trending. How is that useful for people coming to find fic for fandoms they probably are already aware of?
2. The category buttons on the second screen cap are very off putting in that their design presents a fragmented view of the page. It is dis-organizing rather than organizing. The eye does not know where to land. Do please change that to a simple list of clickable categories.
3. Agree completely with those who are requesting a simple A-Z list of fandoms be at the top of the hierarchy of ways to browse fandoms.
Thanks for putting this out there for us to react to!

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1. aurilly Thu 19 Sep 2013 05:23PM UTC
  
  I also don't see a point in listing the most popular fandoms and the "most recently updated" fandoms. And since the most popular fandoms get updated most regularly, the two lists will end up being kind of the same, full of Teen Wolf and Marvel, etc. The lists will not only be very similar, but also pretty unchanging. We all know what the big fandoms are and how to find them; we don't need a constant reminder.
  I'm all for the A-Z list, but if we have to have a section that calls out specific fandoms in a subcategory, a much more interesting option would be a random selection of fandoms. Sort of how when you go to a Collection page you sometimes get "random works in collection".
  
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2. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:26PM UTC
  
  Hi!
  We considered alternative displays to a full alphabetized list to see if we can save hits on the servers. As a portion of the users accessing the page will be doing so to find the popular fandoms, they will not need to click to see the full list. However, given the recent feedback, we will be discussing this issue again.
  I'll pass on your feedback to the coders who will do the front-end design — the mock-ups are illustrative of how it will work, and not representative of the final look of the feature.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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C (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 06:22AM UTC

A suggestion for the Submedia Display Page (Figure 3): All submedia fandoms should be displayed below "Recently Active" and "Currently Popular" instead of making people click through another "show all" link.

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1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:08PM UTC
  
  Hi, C!
  I've noted down this idea for us to discuss. Thanks for the feedback!
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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Hagar Thu 19 Sep 2013 08:30AM UTC

As a non-USian user, I like the idea of Country of Origin very much. (And would like to inquire if any of the people who think it's "stupid" and "unnecessary" are not USian.)
Because it is reasonable that one would like to find all media from a country, because one is invested in the culture itself. And it is reasonable that one would like to search for media created in a given language regardless of the language in which fanworks were created.
That said, it may be helpful to communicate that adding country and language data is not mandatory, and these data would be omitted when more trouble then they're worth. (Ancient religions, anyone?)

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1. chasesstarlight Thu 19 Sep 2013 11:19AM UTC
  
  I'm a non-US (and non-Anglophone, for what it's worth) user who does not see the point of Country of Origin.
  The location where something is made seems like such an irrelevant distinction to make, compared to media type. The person who replied to me last page brought up people searching specifically for K-drama, but if that's such a large overlapping fandom it'd make more sense to me to just use subcategories for that, similar to the sequential art section.
  (Do people really search for fic for any and all K-drama in one search though? That's odd to me as well, but that might just be browsing habits. I go for specific fandoms.)
  
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2. 1. troisroyaumes Thu 19 Sep 2013 01:50PM UTC
    
    "Do people really search for fic for any and all K-drama in one search though?"
    Some do, but more to the point: If you just want to see which K-drama fandoms have fic on the archive and which don't, it's much easier to be able to narrow down the list by sorting TV shows for "South Korea" instead of having to CTRL+F every individual title on the giant list of all TV shows.
    Granted, K-drama could be made into a submedia category, but what if someone wants to check to see if there are any fandoms for TV shows in, say, Finland, and there aren't enough Finnish TV shows on the Archive yet to warrant a separate submedia category?
    The usefulness of the country/language filtering for me at least is to help browse through fandoms especially when one isn't specifically looking for an individual fandom going in.
    
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  2. Jain Thu 19 Sep 2013 02:12PM UTC
    
    The person who replied to me last page brought up people searching specifically for K-drama, but if that's such a large overlapping fandom it'd make more sense to me to just use subcategories for that, similar to the sequential art section.
    J-dramas and K-dramas are big enough to be their own AO3 subcategories, but what about Chinese, Taiwanese, Hong Kong, etc. dramas? All of which have their devoted fans who could use a country of origin search. And it's not just Asian dramas, either. There are fans of Indian films, or Hungarian theater, or French literature, or any number of other genres.
    Do people really search for fic for any and all K-drama in one search though?
    Well, any and all (J-dramas, in my case) that I've watched and enjoyed. :-) Which, as AO3 searching stands now, can be very time-consuming work when you've watched (or read, or whatever) enough works in a genre that you can't recall each individual fandom you might be interested in off the top of your head.
    
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3. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:19PM UTC
  
  Hi, Hagar!
  We will attempt to make that point clearer in the future. Thanks for your feedback!
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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Alassenya (Guest) Thu 19 Sep 2013 10:59AM UTC

Wow, this is a huge effort. I am happy with the categories as proposed - many of my favourite fandoms cross the film/TV/web boundaries, so amalgamating them will help me a lot. I don't see myself using language/country of source much in the foreseeable future but I'm sure it will help other people.

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1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:20PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  Thanks for the feedback!
  As a point of clarification, we will be doing nothing to the fandom tags themselves, though they should be easier to find by searching for the name across media categories, yes.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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jadelennox Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:03PM UTC

I really like having the country/language tagging. One subcat I've wanted for years is "Children's and YA literature" under books and media. There are a very small number of edge cases (books published for both young and adult markets, or books such as "Ender's Game" and "To Kill a Mockingbird" which are published by adult imprints but have been de facto children's books for eons), but for the most part, "Children's / YA" are marketing categories so they should be pretty easy to identify.
One question I'd have, if this were to exist, is whether being in one would mean you can't be in another (eg Anne of Green Gables is Children's, NOT novels).
There are still problems with having comics so far from books and literature -- even leaving aside how many graphic novels are true novels in every sense of the word, mixed media books such as "Hugo Cabret" become more complicated -- but I acknowledge that it's easier than having comics far from anime and cartoons. I guess, if you can be in multiple, then, say, Bone fanfiction would be under both top-level comics and top-level books and literature? (Or children's, if that category existed).
My main concern with subcats in general is the wikipedia problem. In wikipedia, if you're in a subcat, you're not in the main category, and that makes browsing and searching categories incredibly difficult. (Eg. a women novelist is not a novelist)

Last Edited Thu 19 Sep 2013 12:06PM UTC

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1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:21PM UTC
  
  Hi there!
  In the proposed system, a fandom can be in as many categories and subcategories as it needs to. In general, we will be advising the Tag Wrangler Committee to rule on the side of more categories added to fandoms rather than fewer, since users not finding their fandoms where they expect to is a bigger problem than them finding them where they didn't expect to.
  All fandoms will also be in the media category at the same time as any submedia categories — and there will be a button to get all fandoms in a category, to help those users who don’t find a particular submedia categorization intuitive.
  Thanks for your feedback! We will take it into account in our discussion.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change Workgroup
  
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talibusorabat (hermitcave) Thu 19 Sep 2013 01:28PM UTC

I think these changes sound absolutely brilliant -- I'm excited!!!
I'm not in the wrestling fandom, but my outsider's two-cents (for what they're worth) is that it would work in Performing Arts. My understanding is that a wrestler's persona is no more real than Stephen Colbert, so it would seem weird to me to put it under real person fiction. (Then again, I'm not sure how Colbert is currently categorized....)
Thanks so much for the work you all do. AO3 is an amazing place.

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1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:16PM UTC
  
  Hi!
  Thanks for your kind words, and for the feedback! We will take it into account when we discuss the proposal.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change
  
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lawless Thu 19 Sep 2013 02:03PM UTC

I have an organizational/philosophical problem with there being some works that belong in a category but no subcategory. I don't think that's how people view lists like this, it will be confusing, and it will lead to more mislabeling. I'd rather see the archive use "other" as a catchall subcategory for every category. That would also deal with currently uncategorized subcategories like opera, etc.
I agree with the many people commenting that the Animation, Comics, Manga & Other Sequential Art category is particularly problematic. I don't care so much about the DC/Marvel debate, although I agree with the reasons behind the objections to singling them out -- is it based on sheer volume of works? -- but there's a need for a graphic novel category. a cartoon/comic strip category, and probably a superhero or comics category instead of DC and Marvel.
I also second the thought that a most popular list is irrelevant for most and that a cat/subcat list and a full A-Z fandom dropdown list are the most useful pieces of information. Not only do I hate having to click many times over to get where I want to, it's an accessibility issue for me (and I'm sure for others) due to physical/medical issues.

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1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Thu 19 Sep 2013 09:24PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  'Other' has been discussed as a name, and there was feedback that suggested using it would imply that the subcategories are exhaustive and would 'other' the fandoms that lack a subcategory. Give the latest feedback, we will likely reconsider the issue.
  I've recorded your feedback! We will take it into account in our ensuing discussion.
  Best,
  hele
  AO3 Category Change.
  
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2. 1. lawless Thu 19 Sep 2013 11:21PM UTC
    
    Inclusiveness has gone amok if every instance of the use of the word "other" to mean "uncategorized" is considered othering. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. When used when organizing categories or classifying, "other" is just that -- uncategorized or unclassified. But if some are still sensitive to the use of the term "other" (which is also probably the easiest for non-native speakers to understand), it's possible to use a different term, like catchall, uncategorized, or not otherwise categorized.
    
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  2. 1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Fri 20 Sep 2013 02:14AM UTC
      
      Hi,
      We will likely be considering alternative terms as well as 'Other', as finding terms most or even just a large majority of users are likely to find comfortable and intuitive always proves to be a challenge.
      Thanks for the feedback!
      Best,
      hele
      AO3 Category Change Workgroup
      
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    2. liquidCitrus Mon 13 Jan 2014 10:06PM UTC
      
      One of my friends, when told of this conversation, suggested "Not previously classified but still equal and respected". I think it was meant as a joke, but I'm not sure.
      
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  3. Account Deleted Fri 20 Sep 2013 06:59PM UTC
    
    It's very inappropriate to talk about "othering" fandoms. Human beings are "othered". Using the social concept of "othering" to refer to an inanimate category made up of genres, that has nothing to do with characteristics applying to human beings, is highly appropriative.
    
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  4. 1. hele (Category_Change_Workgroup) Fri 20 Sep 2013 08:37PM UTC
      
      Hi,
      I agree, to a certain extent, though it's clear that when people make this argument, the 'fandom' is an extension of the people who use it, who are in that fandom's community.
      Best,
      hele
      AO3 Category Change Workgroup
      
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    2. musikurt Tue 24 Sep 2013 03:49PM UTC
      
      This. Thank you for this comment. Could not agree more.
      
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