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"How did you know you were a woman?" Octavia asked.
"Why do you ask?" Odette responded. She had known Via for a couple years, but a couple years for a sinner who had been dead for nearly a century, and a couple years for a hellborn who wasn't even old enough to drink were two very different things, so despite Via's question more than likely coming from a genuine place, Odette was cautious out of habit. It also didn't escape her notice that Via had waited until they were alone, specifically that Clara couldn't meet with them today.
"I dunno," she replied, "just trying to figure things out, you know?"
Odette paused to absorb the different meanings of that answer. Octavia could mean that she's just trying to learn more about Odette, but she could also be trying to figure things out in general, especially for a rather sheltered Goetia.
"I'm just one trans woman," Odette said, "all of us have our own experiences."
"I know, I know," Via promised, "I just… you're the only trans person I know, and I don't have anyone else to talk to about this kind of stuff."
"About trans experiences?"
"Yeah," Via said, sounding unsure.
"I didn't really notice it until puberty," Odette started. She recognized that self-doubt back from when she was first realizing she could be a woman, and she knew how important it would be for Octavia to have someone who she could talk to without judgement, whatever she ended up deciding for herself, "kids in my time were still pretty gendered but my mother was busy enough that she didn't really care what I did as long as I didn't draw too much attention to us."
Odette was lucky in that way.
"But when puberty started… body changes become so much worse when it's not doing what you want it to, especially when you have a sister to compare with. I begged my mother to teach me how to shave as soon as I started noticing it, I don't even think I had started growing a beard by the time I was shaving daily.
"The clothing I didn't mind as much, but my sister and I shared a room for most of our lives to save money, so I kind of got to see Clara go through what I wanted to go through. Okay no that came out wrong," Odette interjected, "but I saw her and my mother and I wanted to be more like them. I wanted to be softer like them, have that body type, not have to shave my face every day—and I will clarify that daily shaving was overkill, but it didn't feel like it at the time.
"One day when my mother and sister were out, I tried on one of Clara's corsets to see how it felt. It didn't fit me at all, but… I remember seeing myself in the mirror and actually liking what I saw for the first time since I was a kid and didn't know what gender roles were," Odette smiled to herself at the memory, where for the first time she looked her reflection in the eye and more than just didn't want to look away, she wanted to keep looking, "I also remember trying to take extra jobs to save up money to buy my own, I think I saved money for over a year to get one secondhand from someone I didn't know. I didn't want anyone to know what I was doing, and I told her I was picking it up for my sister."
"Not a girlfriend?" Octavia asked.
"No definitely not," Odette said quickly, "not in those times. Teenagers still fooled around with each other but we kept it more hidden."
"So did you ever… fool around with anyone?"
"A couple times, I'm not at that part of the story yet."
Octavia trying to not look completely invested was honestly kind of cute.
"Again, my experience is absolutely not universal," Odette clarified, "this is just what I went through. I didn't realize I wanted to be a woman until decades after I died. Clara probably clocked it sooner with how I idolized Marie Curie, but back then, gender was still about rules and roles, and I wanted to be a scientist more than I wanted to be a woman. Women were still "property" when I was young, it's part of why my mother went into ballet and arms dealing, to make a name for herself outside of being someone's wife or daughter, and back then I still kind of thought that if I wanted to be a "real" woman then I'd need to do all that too.
"Even after I realized what transsexuality was—that's what we called it back then—I still didn't think I "counted" because I didn't think I was girly enough. That's bullshit and a lie, the only thing you need to be a woman, or a man, is to want to be one."
"So… did you ever fool around with people? Don't tell me about any weird sex stuff, but like… did you ever have a boyfriend or girlfriend?"
"Not officially," Odette grinned, "but one time when Clara and I went to a party—bunch of teenagers gathered in an old building with some cheap moonshine, teenagerdom hasn't changed much—I dressed in one of her outfits. I told her it was a disguise, and a couple guys ended up flirting with me. They didnt know it, but them looking at me and seeing a girl was… euphoric. It was the happiest I'd felt in a long, long time."
"You didn't flirt with any girls?"
"Not in public, it was too dangerous, even at an illegal event. The last thing I wanted was to get in trouble for homosexuality and drinking only to then have that turned into getting arrested for crossdressing. I think the punishments were the same but I didn't want to be found out," Odette also hadn't considered her attraction, or lack thereof, to either gender at the time.
"The same for punishment drinking and crossdressing?"
"No, same punishment for homosexuality and crossdressing. I wouldn't be found out if they didn't suspect me of anything, and if I got caught for homosexuality they'd most likely figure out I was crossdressing."
"Yeah, makes sense."
"We also never got as far as having sex, so you don't need to worry about weird sex stuff," Odette continued, delighted that her joke made Via grin, "I didn't want anyone to know that I wasn't a girl. Again, danger."
"Did you ever go after girls when you were a guy?"
"Not really," Odette replied, "I've never been into humans so I never made the first move, but when I was dressed as a woman I was honestly just so excited to be recognized as one that I went with it."
Octavia giggled, "I still find it funny that you're an honest-to-Lucifer monsterfucker because that's normal for me."
"It's normal for me too," Odette replied to another giggling fit from Octavia.
"So how did you figure it out in the end?" Via asked, "was it the shaving or the crossdressing or…"
"It wasn't one moment," Odette replied, "crossdressing and drag were the first times in my life I'd actually thought about my gender, but they weren't what made me realise I was a woman, it was just a slow realization that I wasn't happy being perceived as a man. Talking to other trans women definitely helped, especially getting over my imposter syndrome and realizing I don't need to wear makeup and dresses to be a girl. Clara doesn't magically become a guy when she wears pants, so neither do I.
"Do you ever feel like that?" Odette asked Octavia, "like you're unhappy in the way people perceive you, or you're happier when people mistake you for someone else?"
"I don't know," Via said.
"If you avoid trying to define it, what do you feel like? What do you feel about your body, or how you're perceived?"
Octavia was quiet for a few seconds.
"I don't want to cut my hair," she said, "I like it long, but I hate my chest fluff. I hate how it feels and I hate how it looks, and sports bras don't cover it enough and honestly they're so much less comfortable than going braless."
Odette nodded but said nothing, letting Via try to define herself without Odette's opinions or advice adding to the confusion.
"I don't like it when people see me as a girl but I don't think I want to be seen as a boy? I hate it when I get grouped with "ladies" but I don't think I'd mind it if I were grouped with "gentlemen"? Like I don't want to be a boy but I kind of want to be a guy? That's what I mean when I say it's confusing."
"Of course it's confusing," Odette agreed, biting back the comment that Octavia could be neither if she wanted, "being perceived is terrifying."
"Ah, the existential horror of being known," Via said.
"Anything else?"
"I don't know if I want to stop wearing skirts," Octavia said, "sometimes I think I wouldn't mind giving up skirts and dresses if it made people perceive me as a guy but then I'll put on a skirt I like and I don't want to give it up, and I want to go on T so my voice drops and I get more muscle mass but my acne was bad enough when I was going through puberty and I think if I have to go through that again I'd literally rather kill myself. I also tried wearing a corset at one point, I can't remember why, but it's one of my favourite pictures because somehow it's my most masculine looking photo?"
"Stays hide breasts really well," Odette said.
"But you see what I mean?" Octavia asked, "I wish I just felt one way or the other, not this in-between shit."
"I didn't feel one way or the other for decades," Odette said, "I didn't try to transition until the 70s, and even then I wasn't public until closer to the 90s. I've lived as a man at least three times as long as I've been a woman, and that's because I'm made of all that "in-between shit."
"Yes it's harder to recognize what you are," Odette continued, "but it's also who you are. I don't know how you feel about yourself, but I'm happier being a woman who's also a scientist than I would be being just a woman or just a scientist."
"Yay for women in STEM," Octavia said with a small smile.
"I also kind of felt guilty when I transitioned because I thought I was "one of the good guys" but it turns out I was a girl. The thing is, there are always more good men out there, and there's only one me."
"If you get any sappier you're gonna turn into a motivational quote," Octavia joked, to which Odette lightly smacked her with her notebook.
"To be cringe is to be free, embrace the whimsy and sap or die."
"Fuck you, my name is Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way and I have ebony black hair—"
Odette threw a pencil at Via to cut her off, "what do you think Ebony's name would be if he were a guy?"
"Ebony is already such a gender name, I don't think it would change."
"True."
"Sap and cringe and whimsy aside," Odette said, "it took me literal decades to figure out what I wanted, and still longer than to label myself as a trans women. These things are complicated and take time, and you're allowed to go back and change your mind if you don't like how something feels."
"Do you regret taking so long?" Octavia asked anxiously.
Odette had to pause for a few seconds before slowly answering, "not… really. Sometimes I mourn what I could have had if I had been more sure of myself when I was younger, but I also learned a lot of good lessons and met a lot of good people because I didn't figure it out immediately, and every misstep made me who I am today."
Odette smiled to herself, "it took me a long fucking time to be happy with myself, and now I am. So no, I don't regret taking so long. Besides, giving myself a time constraint would either stress me into indecision or lead to me making stupid decisions. You don't have to do anything permanent. Ever. You can go slow, you don't have to give yourself any labels you're unsure of, or you can try on a bunch of things and see what feels the best."
Octavia cocked her head in contemplation.
"I don't know how similar chest fluff is to hair, are you able to trim it back?" Odette asked.
"Sort of?" Via said, "it only sometimes grows back if you cut it unless you pluck them from the roots, then it always grows back. It's why feather thinner or calcium injections are used when you want to change hairstyles. There are local thinners but if I want to grow it back I'd need to take calcium supplements or injections, and I really don't want to risk that conversation with my mum."
"Oh yeah I understand. I mean, my mother was accepting and even then I was terrified of telling her anything, it's part of why I was stealth for so long."
"So I'm limited to things that are reversible."
"If you want…" Odette began, "I think Clara knows how to masculinize your face with makeup. She's mostly experienced in humanoid looks but she's probably your best bet at figuring it out for owls. She taught me how to do makeup even though I rarely use it, and I can get you a stay or corset that might hide your chest fluff a bit more, your mom won't look twice at you wearing makeup or a corset, and both are things that you can try on and move on from if you don't like it."
Odette bumped her shoulder against Octavia's, "this gender stuff is complicated, take all the time you need with it, and I'll be here for whatever you need, even if you don't decide to do anything."
"Thanks," Via said.
"When I was figuring things out," Odette continued, "back when I was still alive actually, I used a more neutral nickname. It felt more comfortable than my given name but it didn't "give anything away," so to speak. And if you want to try out different pronouns, Clara and I will be happy to help you without telling a soul, not even our parents."
Octavia rested her chin in her hand for a few moments, "I like my name," she said, "I don't know if I want to change it."
"You don't have to," Odette promised, "you're not any less of… whatever you want to be just because you're not a perfect example of it. Hell, I kind of hate wearing skirts and makeup stresses me out, and it took me years to unpack the internalized misogyny of assuming I wasn't being "woman" enough to be a woman, but remember that our foremothers and forefathers fought for decades to wear what they liked and act how they liked. The women who wore pantaloons to ride bikes and horses would kick my ass for insinuating that I'm any less of a woman for wearing pants, and I'd deserve it. It's hard enough being a woman, or man, or just a person in general," that was not her smoothest moment, "we shouldn't have to work so much harder than everyone else just to be seen as who we are.
"Queer or not, crossdressing, trans, or just a woman in pants, all risked harrassment or worse for the right to wear what they wanted, so I'm dressing how I like, and that just so happens to not include skirts, and you dress how you want, and that might include skirts. Embrace the cringe, sure, but more important than that is to embrace being genuine. Everyone's so scared of being perceived that they all hide behind layers of irony and never saying what they mean or doing what they want, but you'll never truly be happy unless you let yourself be happy. So, you know, embrace being genuine."
A long pause followed that almost made Odette think the conversation was over before her friend spoke up again.
"Could you try calling me V?" They asked nervously.
"Sure thing, V," she promised.