Where We Are

Post Header

Published:

2016-04-06 17:30:46 UTC

Translations:

Tags:

Organization for Transformative Works Membership Drive, April 6–12, 2016

The Organization for Transformative Works (OTW) dedicates itself all year to the protection and preservation of fanworks and fan culture through its projects: Archive of Our Own (AO3), Fanlore, Legal Advocacy, Open Doors, and Transformative Works and Cultures. This week, we'll share what we've accomplished in 2015 thanks to your support, and what your donations can help us achieve in the future.

Infographic with OTW project statistics and 2016 budget information
Follow this link to access this infographic's contents in text form. Graph adapted from the 2016 OTW Budget.

Help our work grow even more this year by making a donation. If you give US$10 or more, you can become a member of the OTW, and for US$50 or more, you can choose an exclusive OTW thank you gift. Please help spread the word: reblog, retweet, share this post, and donate to the OTW today!

Actions

Comments

Sorry, this news post doesn't allow comments.

paraka Wed 06 Apr 2016 06:52PM UTC

Psst. The link to the budget doesn't work, I think it should be http://www.transformativeworks.org/2016-budget/

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. OTW_Board (Official) Wed 06 Apr 2016 07:00PM UTC
  
  Fixed, sorry about that.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
2. 1. paraka Wed 06 Apr 2016 07:02PM UTC
    
    No problem. :)
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
Gorrlaus Wed 06 Apr 2016 07:08PM UTC

I'm curious to know how big Archive of Our Own is, counting in gigabytes?

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. Priscilla (OTW_DevMem) (Official) Thu 07 Apr 2016 01:12AM UTC
  
  Hi, Gorrlaus,
  Good question! According to one of our sysadmins, the Archive of Our Own database is 244GB.
  Best,
  Priscilla
  OTW Development & Membership
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
3rdpiece Thu 07 Apr 2016 12:44AM UTC

Wow the budget for fundraiser itself already $31,500.00, raising fund for raising fund is kinda redundant.

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. Amy (OTW_DevMem) (Official) Thu 07 Apr 2016 01:04AM UTC
  
  Hi 3rdpiece!
  Thanks for taking the time to read our post. We simplified the budget for the purposes of the graphic, so the fundraising category on the graph includes everything related to fundraising and outreach: expenses with thank-you gifts, projected set-up costs for our merchandise store, tables at conventions, Legal meet-ups, and so on. We invite you to take a look at our 2016 budget to see the detailed breakout of our projected expenses for this year.
  Thank you!
  Amy
  OTW Development & Membership
  
  Last Edited Fri 08 Apr 2016 10:28AM UTC
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
(Previous comment deleted.)
1. Harebourg Thu 07 Apr 2016 02:42AM UTC
  
  Do you think we'll finally have a proper inbox/private messages after we hire that 57$ an hour coder lmao
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
2. J (Guest) Thu 07 Apr 2016 02:55AM UTC
  
  I mean. The OTW is a non-profit, so required to disclose expenses. This info is from a prospective budget, but I imagine you could go at the beginning of next year and find their public disclosure of the actual amount spent on everything -- including coding.
  But leaving that aside, $120,000 is either market value, or bit low, for a full time programming job. As I understand, you're supposed to ask for more when freelancing, because you're also covering business overhead like insurance, taxes, etc. So. If someone has convinced you otherwise, maybe you need a raise?
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
3. 1. nucl3ar_p0laris Thu 07 Apr 2016 05:10PM UTC
    
    Anywhere in Eastern Europe you can find skillful programmers whose annual salary is about $ 6,000
    Let that sink in.
    $120,000 is what a person like that would hope to make for 20 years.
    Most search for better life in the rest of the world, but this situation is not only in Europe, its worldwide. But yeah, support 1 person with these money for an year, why not.
    Whatever, the way I expressed myself was like this because I pretty much all people here have absolutely no idea of how 90% of the world survives and how massive of a sum $120,000 is.
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
  2. 1. K (Guest) Thu 07 Apr 2016 06:52PM UTC
      
      $6,000 a year is waaaay below the cost of living in the United States, but I agree that $120,000 is too much. I mean, I'm not saying to pay this person minimum wage, but something like $60,000 would provide a comfortable standard of living.
      
      Comment Actions
      - Thread
      - Parent Thread
    2. 1. AlexSummanus Fri 08 Apr 2016 02:04AM UTC
        
        FWIW, my brother makes $75,000/year (give or take; he put in an assload of overtime last year and took home more, and Uncle Sam took more as a result). He and his wife are living paycheck-to-paycheck thanks to ridiculous rent. Because they're living paycheck-to-paycheck, their credit rating is shit, which means they can't get a loan for a home, even with his VA benefits (yes, he's a veteran), which means they have to continue paying exorbitant rent to live in a safe neighborhood for their four year old. His wife wrecked their car last year, and he still owes $5,000 on that, even though it was totaled out, because he thought they had gap insurance but found out after the fact they didn't. They have a second child on the way because their birth control failed (yes, this is a thing that actually happens - it's not just a scare tactic for high schoolers).
        $120,000/year is a comfortable living if you want to be in a safe neighborhood, in a safe, maintained home, with a reliable car - IF you're in a moderately-priced part of the country. $120,000/year is jack and shit in a place like SF, LA, NYC, or other high-density, high-priced areas.
        
        Last Edited Fri 08 Apr 2016 02:04AM UTC
        
        Comment Actions
        
        Thread
        
        Parent Thread
      2. lol no (Guest) Sun 10 Apr 2016 03:08AM UTC
        
        (give or take; he put in an assload of overtime last year and took home more, and Uncle Sam took more as a result)
        Not how taxes work.
        $120,000/year is a comfortable living if you want to be in a safe neighborhood, in a safe, maintained home, with a reliable car - IF you're in a moderately-priced part of the country. $120,000/year is jack and shit in a place like SF, LA, NYC, or other high-density, high-priced areas.
        Lots of people live reasonably well on far less than that in those cities. Let me guess, by "safe neighborhood" you mean white neighborhood, right?
        
        Comment Actions
        
        Thread
        
        Parent Thread
        
        AlexSummanus Sun 10 Apr 2016 02:53PM UTC
        
        Yes how taxes work. Do you think people who put in overtime get all of that money tax-free? No one pays taxes on the time-and-a-half they took home for holidays at the same rate as the taxes they paid on their regular time? When Uncle Sam takes a third of it no matter how much you work, you don't "get most of it back at the end of the year" as my brothers' friends accuse him of.
        And no, I don't mean a "white" neighborhood. I lived above WHITE drug users whose WHITE drug dealers were always parked in our driveway in a "white" neighborhood. I lived two houses down from a WHITE sex offender who preyed on WHITE underage girls in a "white" neighborhood. I will not live next to either with my family. How WHITE is YOUR thinking to think those problems are only limited to people of color?
        
        Last Edited Sun 10 Apr 2016 02:54PM UTC
        
        Comment Actions
        
        Thread
        
        Parent Thread
    3. doitninetimes Fri 08 Apr 2016 01:46PM UTC
      
      As a person who codes professionally in the USA, I would like to add a few things that might help you understand.
      1. When hiring a coder, especially for a site as large and complicated as AO3, any previous experience is a major plus. Coding is like doing a puzzle that is changing as you put it together, and half the time you have to re-carve entire sections to add the new functionality you want. So when given the option to work with someone who already KNOWS the puzzle vs someone who will take 3+months to get up to speed, that previous experience is worth a lot, both in terms of time and money.
      2. While it's true you can hire great contractors from all over the world, you can also hire terrible ones, and the language barrier isnt a small thing to dismiss. At my previous job, I worked with a team of contractors, some of whom were great, several of which were terrible, and the language barrier was a persistent issue, no matter how great they were at their job. Picking someone you a) know the abilities of and b)you can communicate well with are important factors in getting anything done.
      3. The amount they've priced is entirely appropriate for a mid-level contractor in the US. I'm assuming they are 1099, which means they have to pay a lot extra in taxes, plus cover their own health insurance, which you are required to have by law. Assuming the budget item for 'coder' is all going to the one person in its entirety, that person will keep about 60% of that sum.
      
      Last Edited Fri 08 Apr 2016 07:23PM UTC
      
      Comment Actions
      - Thread
      - Parent Thread
    4. 1. pink_green_purple Sun 10 Apr 2016 02:54PM UTC
        
        I work in EE for a global IT company and English is a very, very, very popular working language worldwide, especially in IT. To me it sounds like you simply got unlucky with your subcontractors.
        Cultural differences come into play (why does it take a month for country X to respond to e-mails, why is country Y so resistant to change and why does it look like no one knows who's in charge of what in country Z), but language barrier is bullshit, and often there aren't even native language equivalents for English terminology and corporate slang.
        
        Comment Actions
        
        Thread
        
        Parent Thread
      2. doitninetimes Tue 12 Apr 2016 08:43PM UTC
        
        Like I said, there are many wonderful highly skilled coders, who probably speak English flawlessly. There are also less skilled coders who do not speak English flawlessly. Seeing as you work for a global company, it sounds like you are attracting very skilled people. I was working for a very small start-up with significantly less reach.
        
        Comment Actions
        
        Thread
        
        Parent Thread
4. Carmarthen Thu 07 Apr 2016 01:32PM UTC
  
  I'm not sure about that part of the budget, either, but 1) AO3 isn't a simple site, it's a complex site with a lot of really messy code that badly needs to be disentangled, even setting aside the many new features users would like, and 2) $120,000 would cover 1 or maybe 1.5 (if junior) full-time U.S. coders for a year. If AO3 were going to actually hire some full-time coders to fix what's broken and develop new features, that would be a reasonable budget number. I believe the last time this came up they indicated having at least one internal candidate who is already familiar with the archive's code (whether this is a good decision is again, open to question, but beside the point on compensation).
  Where are "all the good places that offer competitive coding work" in your opinion based? If they're based in countries with lower cost of living, that's irrelevant if AO3 already has an internal coder in mind who is based in the US, Australia, Canada, or Western Europe.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
5. infiniteworld8 Thu 07 Apr 2016 09:13PM UTC
  
  I think that was seriously rude,the multiple uses of fuck really detract from your point and next time maybe try a logical discourse rather than resorting to swearing. Secondly, the site isn't that simple, and as they are planning on one day hosting vids, music, etc and other such works I find the need for more budget on coding to be reasonable.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
metaltin (Guest) Thu 07 Apr 2016 04:24AM UTC

Hi, Thank you so much for the detailed and informative breakdown. It's really a great step forward compared to previous drives and I applaud you!
I did had a few more questions however. Regarding Coding Services cost for 2016, how many professional coders is the Org planning to hire? I'm not in US so I had to rely on online resources to find average salaries, but at least according to what a found, the average salary for a "Senior Ruby Programmer" was around 70K USD. Is this correct? How is the coder going to be hired? Was a job posting put up anywhere, to avail of the best competitive prices and talent available from a more democratic, and wider worldwide pool of programming talent?
Additionally, I see that the total expected 2016 expenses are $343,750.00, and the estimated income from drives is $227,812.50. Am I right in assuming that this means we'll be seeing only 1 more donation drive this year, if everything goes well? At this point, how safe/comfortable is AO3 based on money left over from previous years' drives? I admit I feel wary at the thought of donation to donation living...

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. Krytella Thu 07 Apr 2016 06:41AM UTC
  
  It depends on where you are in the US, I'm sure. My starting salary as a junior developer was $80k USD and my salary at my last job as a more "senior" role was $120k.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
2. 1. metaltin (Guest) Thu 07 Apr 2016 10:31AM UTC
    
    Thank you, that's interesting and really helps me get a better idea of the costs. :)
    I am still interested in knowing the hiring process and the pool which was accessed. OTW and AO3 are important to all of us all and funded by a large international community of fans, so I feel there's a huge opportunity available to OTW in managing its costs.
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
3. OTW_DevMem (Official) Thu 07 Apr 2016 01:33PM UTC
  
  Hi, metaltin,
  Thank you for your questions and taking the time to read our post. The $120,000 for coding services is an estimate and includes work that has not been contracted yet on upcoming projects. Job postings will be published externally to look for the best candidates, and this compensation is in line with IT industry standards in the US, as Krytella mentioned.
  The OTW always runs two fundraising drives per year, in April and October. Drive income is supplemented with what we receive in non-drive months from one-time and recurring donations. We’ve also made sure to keep a healthy safety net in reserves in case of emergencies—you can see it in the right-hand column of our annual budget.
  We hope this answered your questions! If you’d like to know more, please contact us anytime.
  Best,
  kiki-eng
  Development & Membership
  
  Last Edited Fri 08 Apr 2016 10:25AM UTC
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
4. 1. 3rdpiece Fri 08 Apr 2016 02:54PM UTC
    
    You guys hire new contract every year?
    If that is so then the coder is a freelancer and $120,000 for coding is extremely generous in OTW part even for a full-time job because $120,000 is the salary of top10% of coders in US, the average pay for a coder in US is $77,550.
    The donation drive twice per year does the second drive will be this amount as well and does that amount only for a half year contract?
    Also with that very generous pay to coder will AO3 allows more than 20 fav tags.
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
  2. 1. Sezso Fri 08 Apr 2016 07:10PM UTC
      
      It's an annual budget, so the 120k would be for the year, I would assume.
      
      Comment Actions
      - Thread
      - Parent Thread
MRMRGG Thu 07 Apr 2016 04:51AM UTC

just few quick questions. Why does the transaction fees so high? What does it include? And those are yearly budget right?

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. OTW_DevMem (Official) Thu 07 Apr 2016 01:57PM UTC
  
  Hi, Ryane_Monju,
  Transaction fees include payment and bank fees, particularly transaction fees for processing each donation made through PayPal, which takes up a small percentage of each one. They are included in the prospective budget for 2016 and the amount we estimated is due to the number of transactions.
  If you have other questions, please feel free to contact the Development & Membership team.
  Best,
  kiki-eng
  Development & Membership
  
  Last Edited Fri 08 Apr 2016 10:26AM UTC
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
2. 1. saisei Sun 10 Apr 2016 02:35AM UTC
    
    Is the OTW still keeping very large amounts of money in its two PayPal accounts? If so, is any of that money insured, and is there a plan in place in case either of those accounts is frozen (and the money potentially irrecoverable)?
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
  2. 1. Priscilla (OTW_DevMem) (Official) Sun 10 Apr 2016 10:57PM UTC
      
      Hi, saisei,
      We do have some money in our PayPal accounts temporarily, as we receive it, and then later transfer it to our regular bank, which is FDIC insured. We’ve tried to deactivate that second old PayPal account, but it keeps getting reactivated due to a technical glitch. We’re trying to iron out the issue, which hopefully shouldn’t take long now. (It’s not against the United States PayPal Terms of Service to have two accounts, though, and there is no imminent risk of our accounts being frozen, to the best of our understanding.)
      Best,
      Priscilla
      OTW Development & Membership
      
      Comment Actions
      - Thread
      - Parent Thread
frogspace Thu 07 Apr 2016 02:13PM UTC

Psst, the reblog link says "ADD LINK TO TUMBLR POST". Do you mean this one http://ao3org.tumblr.com/post/142370038378/otwdriveapril2016 ?

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. OTW_DevMem (Official) Thu 07 Apr 2016 03:42PM UTC
  
  Sorry about that. Thanks so much for pointing that out; we've fixed it.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
infiniteworld8 Thu 07 Apr 2016 09:14PM UTC

Really excited about the infographic of the budget breakdown, I was expecting a budget in a list form and honestly was not looking forward to reading it :) Infographics are great for breaking things down quickly!

Comment Actions
- Thread
KittyMint Fri 08 Apr 2016 03:54AM UTC

I know this has been brought up before, but have you guys thought about opening up a small store where people could purchase items with the OTW and AO3 logos? Profits could go into the budget and it is something that could be done year round.

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. Sezso Fri 08 Apr 2016 01:28PM UTC
  
  Actually it looks like they're going to do that this year! In the 2016 Budget that they linked at the end of the article, they have the merch store under the Fundraising section. So with any luck we'll get to buy all the things soon!
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
Kalloway Fri 08 Apr 2016 12:07PM UTC

I would be more inclined to donate if I haven't just waited close to four months for a decision on fixing an incorrectly synned fandom tag on a story in a small collection I hosted. I'm also waiting on a decision on a support request from February about using the proper canon name for a fandom, instead of using an abbreviated version.
While I understand that tag wrangling can be difficult for interconnected fandoms, the general inconsistency is so interesting that I actually ended up writing some meta about the contradictory information received from support about what qualifies as a separate fandom and what doesn't (along with suggestions for workable solutions).
If anyone is interested, here is a link: http://archiveofourown.org/works/6167875

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. taichara Fri 08 Apr 2016 12:19PM UTC
  
  I'll second this, both the general and the specific problems.
  When one has been pushed off and brushed off so many times, one is highly disinclined to make any contribution to an organization that stubbornly refuses to make corrections -- and, worse, deliberately UNMAKES corrections.
  One of these fandoms mentioned above had its tag unsynned as was sensible; I wrote a fic and tagged it with the fandom, having written another previously (which tag I corrected); and subsequently the correction WAS REVERSED. And all of this while being brushed off by AO3 staff making mealy-mouthed claims about the fandom which held about as much water as a sieve.
  No, I don't think I feel remotely inclined to make a donation. Ever.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
2. Sezso Fri 08 Apr 2016 01:47PM UTC
  
  Have either you or taichara tried volunteering for the tag wranglers? Briefly glancing through your meta but being unfamiliar with the canon situation, it seems like they could use more help for Gundam? If they are slow to respond and discussions go on forever, that would seem to indicate they have too much day-to-day stuff to do to get around to fixing underlying problems. Also it would seem that they don't have someone with your extensive knowledge. If they haven't asked for more Gundam fandom wranglers, then that seems problematic in and of itself.
  I definitely agree that they should be communicating with the users directly, that seems an easy way to begin to fix a complicated situation. But I would also add that the AO3 does seem to be making some positive changes lately, especially with this budget which was a big point of contention last year. Hopefully with the new leadership some of these glaring issues will start to be addressed, but they'll need resources to begin to tackle things, so I'm still donating because I'm still hopeful.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
3. 1. Kalloway Fri 08 Apr 2016 02:18PM UTC
    
    I have absolutely considered volunteering, however there are multiple reasons that I can't. The first is that in the recent past, when I've checked the lists of fandoms being recruited for, there haven't been any Gundam series listed. The second, more personal reason, is that I literally do not have the free time being a volunteer requires and likely will not for some time.
    I have offered my input and been told it's under consideration, as stated. Anyone from the AO3 is welcome to contact me, though I'd prefer they make a post/open a dialogue to solicit opinions from the whole of users interested in the meta-fandom.
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
  2. taichara Fri 08 Apr 2016 02:19PM UTC
    
    Given that the Gundam wrangler clearly does not want to give up an iota of (self-percieved) power over the fandom, since they've so clearly communicated that they know what is right even when they're fucking ludicrously wrong, the odds of either of us ever being able to volunteer to work on the fandom and make it actually make some level of sense hovers somewhere around negative divided by zero.
    Said wrangler has made direct communications to the effect that the current broken setup is exactly how they want it. Which is goddamn ridiculous.
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
  3. 1. Sezso Fri 08 Apr 2016 04:21PM UTC
      
      Jeeze. Sorry things are such a mess for you guys!
      
      Comment Actions
      - Thread
      - Parent Thread
  4. Concerned (Guest) Fri 08 Apr 2016 07:46PM UTC
    
    I understand that you're trying to be helpful, but "have you considered signing up to spend hours doing data entry" as a solution to the AO3's issues is one of many reasons I'm personally not planning to donate. I understand having hope, but a userbase and administration that still thinks "manual labor" is a realistic tagging solution is not one I can bring myself to have hope for.
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
  5. 1. Sezso Fri 08 Apr 2016 08:21PM UTC
      
      It wasn't meant as a suggestion, I was literally asking if they had. Because that would tell me more about the situation. Sorry if it came off wrong.
      
      Last Edited Fri 08 Apr 2016 08:24PM UTC
      
      Comment Actions
      - Thread
      - Parent Thread
4. AO3_Tag_Wranglers (Official) Sat 09 Apr 2016 10:09PM UTC
  
  Hi,
  Thanks for bringing up your concern. For anyone who hasn't submitted a Support ticket yet, please feel free to do so. For anyone who has already submitted a Support ticket and received a reply, if you have any new information, you're welcome to resubmit.
  We ask for Support to coordinate communication between users and wranglers because we've had some unfortunate incidents in the past where a few users have made ad hominem attacks against wranglers for their work. We're sure everyone agrees that that's uncalled for behavior. We want to avoid creating situations where that might happen again, to maintain a positive experience for our volunteers so they are willing to continue donating their time. The Support team has been kind enough to offer their assistance with that goal.
  In this specific case, the five Gundam wranglers have not yet finished their conversation. We'll go nudge that back into action. Sorry for the wait! In terms of volunteering, a quick review shows only SD Gundam as not wrangled at this time, but we often have many Japanese fandoms available during recruitment periods. We hope that, if you have time and interest in the future, you'll be able to find some fandoms you're familiar with on the list.
  Warm Regards,
  Tag Wrangling Chairs
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
5. 1. Kalloway Sun 10 Apr 2016 02:10AM UTC
    
    Thank you for responding. I have considered sending an entire copy of the meta essay I wrote to Support, to pass along to the wranglers, though I believe at this point it would be redundant.
    I have absolutely no issue with Support, nor with the wranglers in general. I would just like the tag wranglers to be on the same page of the same book so that I, and others interested in the same fandoms, are able to tag works into and find works in the most correct places they can possibly be. This does include, in my personal opinion, using proper canon names, having set canon title formatting for non-Western fandoms and using it consistently, and possibly creating a definition of what constitutes a separate fandom that can be applied evenly (or, at least, be taken into consideration based on user feedback).
    I have no interest in attacking anyone and have done my best to only communicate factual information, information relayed to me and other users, and my personal opinions as far as site navigation. I will admit that some frustration comes into play because this has been an ongoing issue that likely would have continued without a nudge if I hadn't brought it to a News post.
    While I, too, look forward to a day when I might be able and willing to put my (metaphorical and perhaps literal) money where my mouth is, I'm curious why you're singling out Japanese fandoms that I might be familiar with, instead of fandoms in general.
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
Jade (Guest) Fri 08 Apr 2016 11:40PM UTC

That budget...
You are either running dual or tripple redundant server cluster with your own cage/cabinet at a major datacenter/s or getting ripped off. I'm totally checking your host out next time at work. :)
The rest of the budget looks normal-ish. Year round coding/support staff is expencive. Just one guy on a meh salary would burn like 30k a year.

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. zz9pzza Sat 09 Apr 2016 06:32AM UTC
  
  Just speaking on my own behalf ( I am a member of systems and adt ).
  We have our own rack in a tier 3 data center, we have made a post about this in the past showing the equipment and we hope to have some posts in the future giving more details. Practically all components of the Archive are running in a active/active cluster.
  On the contracting front remember that contractors have to pay for their own benefits and that would add significant amount. I would point you to doitninetimes comment above.
  Coding and maintaining a site that has between 17 and 20 million page views a day is not simple and the number of volunteers we have as coders and systems administrators is surprisingly small.
  
  Last Edited Sat 09 Apr 2016 06:38AM UTC
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
NotAlexHorne Sun 10 Apr 2016 09:53AM UTC

I'm just putting this out there, but if AO3 were a Kickstarter or IndieGogo project, it would have been considered failed a long time ago. You say the reason you're still in beta is because you haven't reached all the points on your roadmap. And you say the reason you haven't done THAT is because you're volunteer run.
Lots of things that are volunteer run get shit done a lot more smoothly and efficiently than this site does. They're also a lot more honest and transparent about what they're doing with the money they keep taking in from donations. You have not provided a detailed cost plan for any of the money you bring in, and instead respond to every criticism of this site's practises with the same tired line about how "we're really trying hard, guys!"
Every former volunteer and tag wrangler I've ever met has had nothing but horror stories about how they were mistreated, overlooked, and demeaned by staff. And when a problem does arise, the wranglers apparenly have no power to actually fix the issue.
I mean, at this point, I've got to issue a vote of no-confidence. If this AO3 leaves beta before its tenth anniversary, I'll be absolutely staggered. At this point, being in beta is just an excuse for all the ways in which this site is failing.

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. Priscilla (OTW_DevMem) (Official) Sun 10 Apr 2016 03:18PM UTC
  
  Hi, LokiOfSassgaard,
  We’re sorry to hear the volunteers you’ve met had unpleasant experiences working with us. The OTW and AO3 are definitely far from perfect, and there’s plenty of room for improvement, including in the areas of management, communication with our donor base about finances, and organizational culture. We’re doing our best to improve upon these structural issues in addition to our projects over time.
  We understand and respect your position, and we hope that, in the future, we can get to a better place that may get you to reconsider.
  Best,
  Priscilla
  OTW Development & Membership
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
2. Tenten (Guest) Mon 11 Apr 2016 09:46PM UTC
  
  This year introduced new tools and procedures for volunteers in all committees that make easier to deal with complaints from volunteers. One thing that will make the future more pleasant for all volunteers is, in January the OTW /Ao3 started using Slack, and that allows real time communication between volunteers, even in different committees, and at different levels (volunteer, staff, chair, board). I don't doubt that in the past, when many people speaking many languages in closed off committees were trying to communicate in only emails or comments, there were hurt feelings or perceived pressures put on people. 2016 will be a very different volunteer experience from any year that has come before it (also keep in mind, we have a fresh, interim board, and that will make 2016 very different from 2015 or 2017 as well).
  I have the luck to know volunteers who are greatly enjoying themselves, and find the work gratifying. Because of horror stories heard before, new procedures are being put in place to check in with volunteers and to remind volunteers not to take on too much--that their time is their own, and that there is always help ready and available (and now easier to ask for, because of Slack).
  As for the being in beta, I don't mind that is still, and wouldn't mind if it continued to be for another ten years. The sites within the OTW function. They are being used, they are growing. Things could be better, absolutely, and the OTW is working towards that as best they can... even considering that everyone is a volunteer. This site is unique--it shouldn't be compared to anything else.
  For now, there is the 2016 budget, and the OTW is in talks with certified accounts (these were mentioned in previous posts) and at the end of the year, a report is generated showing how the money was spent. I hope that at the end of 2016, you can see that report and it may renew your hope in the archive. If not, I hope you continue to voice your complaints.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
amyfortuna (elwinfortuna) Mon 11 Apr 2016 11:26AM UTC

Speaking as someone who's donated before many times, decisions made in the last year about how to handle character tags for Silmarillion have really put me off. People who asked politely (and there were quite a lot of us) for the issues to be reconsidered and looked at received condescending replies and were basically brushed off.
The piping is awful to look at, makes signing up for exchanges ten times harder, and a lot of the choices for names are either outright incorrect, controversial when you look at canon, or contain spoilers. It also has the unfortunate effect of appearing like people who make different choices wrt spelling or usage in their fics (for instance using 'K's instead of 'C's in names like 'Turkafinwë' or calling Celebrimbor 'Tyelperinquar' instead of 'Telperinquar') are Officially(tm) Wrong when that's not the case at all.
This issue isn't limited to Silmarillion fandom - 'Ben Solo | Kylo Ren' for instance, in Star Wars, is pure fanon - his last name is never stated to be 'Solo' at any point and might well be 'Organa'.
Overall, I quite like Ao3 as a archive. From a user's perspective who just wants to post and read fics, things work pretty well. But the attitude of people behind the scenes makes me feel like they're not interested in improving my user experience but have chosen to deliberately make things harder for me and a lot of my fellow fans this last year, and really don't care about my perspective at all. So, why should I give my money to an organisation that isn't listening to me?

Comment Actions
- Thread
1. taichara Mon 11 Apr 2016 11:57AM UTC
  
  Amen to all of this, from a fellow suffer of condescending brush-offs when it comes to a plague on my fandom's tagging.
  It's depressing to know that Gundam isn't the only fandom having the problem, really, because it's starting to sound systemic at this point. Over and over again we're given the same song and dance -- that these messes are Right [tm] (even when patently not Right [tm]), and we'll just have to deal with it.
  All my sympathy for the runaround you've gotten.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
2. eldvarpa Mon 11 Apr 2016 12:41PM UTC
  
  I second this.
  I really don't understand how having unwieldy, confusing and at times imprecise piped tags/dual names tags (not sure how many people recognise 'Aulendur' as a title of Mahtan) is better than having all 'Name (Tolkien)' kind of tags. But judging by other fandoms' situations, it's probably too much to hope that AO3 stops brushing its users' negative experiences off.
  
  Last Edited Mon 11 Apr 2016 12:51PM UTC
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
3. Ilye Mon 11 Apr 2016 06:58PM UTC
  
  I am completely free behind this and taking the same approach. There will be no donations this time around for the reasons listed above.
  Even if the "tag-wrangling team" were so set on keeping the dreadful piped tags, they could at least have the grace to correct it when prompted by numerous users who have been in the Silmarillion fandom for a very long time. And attempts at consistency would be nice, too - why does Aredhel not have an alternative Irissë tag, for example?
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
4. Tenten (Guest) Mon 11 Apr 2016 10:04PM UTC
  
  For the spelling, one way to have a silent protest is to spell the name in the way that you think is most correct (or appropriate, as the case may be). When you don't pull a tag from the drop down menu, it must be read by a tag wrangler. Enough times of seeing an alternate spelling would make the wranglers perhaps rethink the canonical tag. It doesn't hurt you to do it either, as the wrangler would have to connect your tag to the existing canonical anyway (meaning, anyone searching for that character will find all the works for that character, regardless of how tag creators have spelled it).
  As for Ben Solo | Kylo Ren, I assume this is to make all works searchable/findable--as some creators might only be saying "Kylo Ren" and others might only be saying "Ben Solo"--but they all mean the same character. As for "Solo" versus "Organa", it could be that most people tagged Ben Solo, and to make it easier for people to find him, the wranglers decided to use the fannish convention of "Solo"... But that is a super wild guess on my part. I would also agree that the tag should probably be "Kylo Ren | Ben", with no last name (until it is revealed in canon).
  I hope these sort of communications find their fix this year. Part of the problem is that you are going through a mediator--support takes your complaint to the wranglers, discusses it, and then support brings a statement back to you. If there is no good answer (or perhaps no answer at all yet, as might be poor Gundam's conundrum), support has to think of the most business like and non-threatening response that they can. Support must be one of the hardest jobs at the archive--as it is essentially customer service in a complaint department. :(
  The wrangling team grows every year (they have recruitment twice a year) and people retire or leave fandoms, meaning that if you've lost faith in your fandom's wranglers, you shouldn't lose hope that someone could come along and shake things up in a way that you like. And guidelines evolve over time, and are probably going to have big changes this year, now that it is so much easier for volunteers to communicate with each other and keep track of tasks (thank you, Slack and Trello).
  I wish your fandoms the best of luck this year, and hope there is some good news (or compromise or happiness or contentment) for you soon!
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
5. 1. No (Guest) Tue 12 Apr 2016 01:48AM UTC
    
    When you don't pull a tag from the drop down menu, it must be read by a tag wrangler. Enough times of seeing an alternate spelling would make the wranglers perhaps rethink the canonical tag.
    If a tag has already been used and made synonymous to a canonical, any further uses don't have to be read by a tag wrangler. Your method of "silent protest" would necessitate using a different spelling each time.
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
  2. amyfortuna (elwinfortuna) Tue 12 Apr 2016 02:03PM UTC
    
    This is part of the thing, though - I don't want to be the arbiter of what is most correct or appropriate any more than I don't want Ao3 to be that arbiter either. When I choose to use K's instead of C's in some names, it's a pure aesthetic preference, and no more valid than the person who prefers C's. There is no right answer, and there doesn't have to be one.
    What's happening here is that the tag wranglers are picking up on the fact that a lot of us use names for the characters from Tolkien's literal rough drafts (as collected in the History of Middle-earth (HoME) series by Christopher Tolkien), and adding those names to the tags (using the horrible unreadable piping). But those names weren't necessarily settled on by Tolkien himself or anyone else - they vary in spelling, in meaning, in context. Some of them imply certain backstories for the characters that others don't. So essentially what Ao3 is doing here is making certain spellings 'official' and hampering our freedom to play about with the different variations of canon.
    I haven't heard of it happening yet, but I wouldn't be too surprised to see a comment along the lines of: "Nice fic but you misspelled 'Macalaurë' all the way through, according to the tag it's 'Makalaurë'. (When in actual fact it could just as well be either - and the Silmarillion says 'Maglor'.)
    If it were up to me to decide what tags would appear, I would use the names as stated in the Silmarillion, and consider anything from HoME apocryphal, except where characters only exist in HoME (like Andreth). Any other uses of other names can be synned behind the scenes. If there's a conflict or a repeated name - as there sometimes is - I would differentiate in order of canonicity, with HoME being the source of very last resort. Ultimately my goal would be to keep everything as simple as possible and give people the most ability to use the names they feel are appropriate. It's not Ao3's job to ensure that my readers understand the names I'm using in my fic, it's my job as the author.
    It's really good to hear that volunteers will have an easier time communicating - Slack and Trello are great tools for that. But I'm just hoping they start listening to us, rather than just telling us 'things won't change, get used to it.'
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
  3. 1. Zdenka Tue 12 Apr 2016 09:20PM UTC
      
      This is very well put.
      More generally, I agree with what amyfortuna and the other Silmarillion fans in this thread have been saying. AO3's response concerning the piped tags has been very frustrating and off-putting. I'm also frustrated that the one semi-official explanation from the wranglers was only posted on Tumblr, with no notification elsewhere, when many of us don't use that platform; it's only by chance that I found out about it at all, and I had no way of responding to the post.
      
      Comment Actions
      - Thread
      - Parent Thread
6. Elleth Mon 11 Apr 2016 10:12PM UTC
  
  Thank you for putting this so succinctly. I cannot usually afford donating, but if I did, I would have reconsidered this time; the condescending and sometimes downright rude responses to fans' inquiries about the tag-wrangling situation were incredibly off-putting.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
7. Independence1776 Tue 12 Apr 2016 12:20AM UTC
  
  This is exactly how I feel. Being literally told that any further complaints about the tags will not be listened to means that the organization does not care. So why I should support it?
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
8. Merme (Guest) Tue 12 Apr 2016 06:09AM UTC
  
  You put that very well and it reflects the reasons why I'm not donating this year. I had never had bad experiences with tag wrangling before but recently it has turned all a bit unpleasant and confusing.
  I recently asked for a Marvel subfandom to be made canonical and in hopes to more easily browse for fics who are set in a very specific world of that subfandom and was basically told that fandoms like the comics fandoms with their huge tag trees were to blame for the server strains and thus the usage of singe comic names as fandoms wasn't as important as stuffing everything into a tag that was named after a more broader event tagline that fandom itself doesn't use to designate the included subfandoms was more important. I felt at the time that it wasn't suers who decided to make the code so unweildy, but were promised that their entered tags would be heeded, but didn't engage. Now I'm always upset when I see the muddled up fandom tag in my dashboard.
  And these arbitrary decisions kept coming. Just ask people in Wrestling related fandoms, who are upset by the way different stage characters by the same performer are synned as if they were in fact one and the same character even if that is not how it works.
  Like many, I really love the site, but it used easier to give input to wranglers and be heard and not simply shut down. It also used to be easier to understand why things were decided upon behind the scenes, because even when things didn't go my way, at least there was consistency to it.
  I mean it's understandable that the Archive is going through some growing pains and that apparently the way tags were set up is part of why there is such a big strain on the servers now that the trees grow more and more branching and unweildy, but what does and doesn't make canonical also very much impacts my user experience in exchanges and challenges run trough AO3 that don't use predetermined tag sets, for example, and I ran into that a couple of times now.
  Much like you I like the archive and many things work very well, but these experiences I've had over the last year leas me to believe that my perspective is no longer wanted and it left me feeling alienated. So for now I'm not going to donate anymore and watch how these things develop.
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
9. 1. taichara Tue 12 Apr 2016 12:04PM UTC
    
    Essentially what it comes down to -- I'm seeing, as more and more people chime in here -- is that the AO3 wrangling team has basically decided that any fandom which doesn't slot into a very narrow definition of "appropriate fandom" can go get bent. Which given the entire history of AO3/OTW/Fanlore/the proliferation of the concept of so-called "feral fans" (and that very concept is insulting on so many levels it's unbelievable) is not surprising at all.
    Let's see, getting short shrift includes, just from what I've seen mentioned here:
    - Non-Western/animanga fandoms
    - Comic book fandoms
    - even well-regarded Western literature fandoms, where the work doesn't have a "set" canonical group of names
    - Wrestling fandom -- where the tag wranglers seem /fundamentally ignorant/ of how professional wrestling as a work of fiction functions (and just what are people that damned ignorant doing wrangling that fandom to begin with? see also: the Gundam problem)
    and so forth.
    So, essentially, it's the same old same old of "if you aren't a Western, live action, television or movie-based fandom, crawl in a corner and rot".
    
    I'd like to say I can't believe the responses you received were that rude, dismissive, and flat insulting, but unfortunately I can all too well.
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
10. Account Deleted Sat 30 Apr 2016 02:10PM UTC
  
  Speaking as someone who had to delete an entire identity worth of fanfic and a complete persona due to receiving months of threats and harassment from an underage user who never received any visible discipline whatsoever? Speaking as someone who found the abuse mods' responses increasingly ineffectual and eventually expressing annoyance toward me for letting them know I was still being abused? I do not donate to AO3 anymore either.
  That said, the tag system now is an absolute disaster. The pipe identities are horrible in so many ways-- and if I see "freeform" jammed onto ONE MORE TAG OF MINE, thereby rendering it effectively dead in the list, I am going to have to choke someone.
  
  Last Edited Sat 30 Apr 2016 02:10PM UTC
  
  Comment Actions
  - Thread
  - Parent Thread
11. 1. Name (Guest) Sun 08 May 2016 02:21AM UTC
    
    I'm so sorry to hear abut your experiences with harassment. Something similar just happened to a friend of mine--they had to delete their account and start afresh due to harassment from an anon. There are no easy answers and no good solutions, unfortunately. I hope your new account thrives and stays safe and sane.
    When you see " - Freeform" or " - Character" and the like added onto a tag, it is the archive itself doing that. It means that what you have written in the tag is duplicated in another field. For example, some wrote "Assdfghjkl" in the character field, and then I later wrote it in the freeform field, my tag would automatically become "Asdfghjl - Freeform". It happens often and there is no good way to catch a mistake (such as people writing characters in the freeforms, and then in the character field) without your input. If you see a freeform with " - Freeform", then please make a report to Support, so they can pass it along to wrangling staff to fix. They will have to put the dash field (like " - Character") on the incorrect tag and then remove the " - Freeform" from your tag, and the like.
    I hope that helps. Again, I'm really sorry to hear about your harassment and I hope it never happens to you again.
    
    Comment Actions
    - Thread
    - Parent Thread
  2. 1. Account Deleted Sun 08 May 2016 02:49AM UTC
      
      Thanks for the advice on getting rid of Freeform! :-)
      The harassment was unlike anything I've experienced in 20+ years of online fandom, and included threats of physical violence. I hope it was a once in a lifetime thing!
      I verified the age of the harasser early on: she was a kid who also posted on the pit of voles, where she had the same ID; according to records there she was in the single digits age-wise when it began. I realize banning her would've just resulted in her making a new account, but at least it would have been an actual punitive consequence-- she'd have had to repost fics, she'd have lost comments, she'd have had to notify what few fans she had... the hassle of having to do that every time she tore into me might have been a deterrent. Being told "Tsk! Someone reported you, so we hope you won't harass people anymore!" only made her worse when she discovered there would be no real consequences for her actions. :-/
      
      Comment Actions
      - Thread
      - Parent Thread
aubergineautumn Mon 01 Aug 2016 04:28AM UTC

Ringing in on the accounting, as a tax accountant.
Here is what you need to spend the $13,000 on:
Federal and state tax return: $1,000 or less. For real, your tax return isn't complicated & can be completed in 2 hours.
Audit: like, you guys are hung up on this audit thing, but again- you don't actually need it. The audit isn't going to "discover" fraud (who ever is stealing will now 100% more how to cover their tracks than the auditor), and it isn't going to tell you anything you don't already know. DON'T spend more than a $1,000 on it. If you had any real sense, you would skip it. But you guys have no accounting background, and I already know: you're gonna blow most of your money on this, because you think it means something.However, this is equivalent to the 7 monthly meetings my condo association had, discussing the new letter header, which they thought conveyed "respectability." You think the audit conveys respectability. *rolls eyes*
What you are too stupid to take advice on, and what you actually need to spend $ on: your bookkeeper. Your bookeeper will have no accounting degree, and probably will run her business out of her home. She will be the most important person your organization will have, besides the coders. She needs to come in once a month, and you give her all the receipts and transactions, and she will enter them into her accounting software. Look for someone with 10+ years of experience, with at least 5 in non-for-profit accounting. NEVER give her access to the checkbook or credit cards.
Speaking of. People with access to the checkbook and credit cards will be your #1 source of fraud. Make it necessary to have 2 signatures on checks before they can be issued. Have your accountant look at the credit cards, and deliver a monthly statement whether there is unusual activity. People moving paypal funds is probably a source of worry.
Finally. There does seem to be too high of expenses for frivolous activities (like the people working for, or people whose expenses are being picked up, are incurring expenses that they shouldn't). Again, your fundraising expenses are too high.
Probably you will not process any of this advice, or really understand the importance of what I told you. If nothing else: your bookkeeper is vital. NO audit, no tax return can occur before the bookkeeper has done her work. PICK YOUR BOOKKEEPER WITH CARE, SHE IS YOUR ONLY HOPE, CLUELESS ONES.
Caveat: You probably really don't know how to interview the bookkeeper. My mom worked 15+ years as the sole bookkeeper of the biggest non-for-profit in state X. She is retired now. But she could probably interview for you, if needed.

Last Edited Mon 01 Aug 2016 04:39AM UTC

Comment Actions
- Thread

AO3 News

Post Header

Actions

Comments

paraka Wed 06 Apr 2016 06:52PM UTC

Comment Actions

OTW_Board (Official) Wed 06 Apr 2016 07:00PM UTC

Comment Actions

paraka Wed 06 Apr 2016 07:02PM UTC

Comment Actions

Gorrlaus Wed 06 Apr 2016 07:08PM UTC

Comment Actions

Priscilla (OTW_DevMem) (Official) Thu 07 Apr 2016 01:12AM UTC

Comment Actions

3rdpiece Thu 07 Apr 2016 12:44AM UTC

Comment Actions

Amy (OTW_DevMem) (Official) Thu 07 Apr 2016 01:04AM UTC

Comment Actions

Harebourg Thu 07 Apr 2016 02:42AM UTC

Comment Actions

J (Guest) Thu 07 Apr 2016 02:55AM UTC

Comment Actions

nucl3ar_p0laris Thu 07 Apr 2016 05:10PM UTC

Comment Actions

K (Guest) Thu 07 Apr 2016 06:52PM UTC

Comment Actions

AlexSummanus Fri 08 Apr 2016 02:04AM UTC

Comment Actions

lol no (Guest) Sun 10 Apr 2016 03:08AM UTC

Comment Actions

AlexSummanus Sun 10 Apr 2016 02:53PM UTC

Comment Actions

doitninetimes Fri 08 Apr 2016 01:46PM UTC

Comment Actions

pink_green_purple Sun 10 Apr 2016 02:54PM UTC

Comment Actions

doitninetimes Tue 12 Apr 2016 08:43PM UTC

Comment Actions

Carmarthen Thu 07 Apr 2016 01:32PM UTC

Comment Actions

infiniteworld8 Thu 07 Apr 2016 09:13PM UTC

Comment Actions

metaltin (Guest) Thu 07 Apr 2016 04:24AM UTC

Comment Actions

Krytella Thu 07 Apr 2016 06:41AM UTC

Comment Actions

metaltin (Guest) Thu 07 Apr 2016 10:31AM UTC

Comment Actions

OTW_DevMem (Official) Thu 07 Apr 2016 01:33PM UTC

Comment Actions

3rdpiece Fri 08 Apr 2016 02:54PM UTC

Comment Actions

Sezso Fri 08 Apr 2016 07:10PM UTC

Comment Actions

MRMRGG Thu 07 Apr 2016 04:51AM UTC

Comment Actions

OTW_DevMem (Official) Thu 07 Apr 2016 01:57PM UTC

Comment Actions

saisei Sun 10 Apr 2016 02:35AM UTC

Comment Actions

Priscilla (OTW_DevMem) (Official) Sun 10 Apr 2016 10:57PM UTC

Comment Actions

frogspace Thu 07 Apr 2016 02:13PM UTC

Comment Actions

OTW_DevMem (Official) Thu 07 Apr 2016 03:42PM UTC

Comment Actions

infiniteworld8 Thu 07 Apr 2016 09:14PM UTC

Comment Actions

KittyMint Fri 08 Apr 2016 03:54AM UTC

Comment Actions

Sezso Fri 08 Apr 2016 01:28PM UTC

Comment Actions

Kalloway Fri 08 Apr 2016 12:07PM UTC

Comment Actions

taichara Fri 08 Apr 2016 12:19PM UTC

Comment Actions

Sezso Fri 08 Apr 2016 01:47PM UTC

Comment Actions

Kalloway Fri 08 Apr 2016 02:18PM UTC