Comment on Nobody's heroes

  1. Anon (Guest) on Chapter 1 Thu 29 Sep 2016 01:55PM UTC

    Tragic... Charlie's death was a consequence. That why Tony blamed himself eventhough he was not the only one involved in the creation of Ultron. That why
    he agreed with the accord. He wanted to be accountable. Steve should at least try to understand Tony's view or maybe to comfort him as well.

    So the accord was not unconstitutional, Steve shouldnt just dismissed it totally. Why the accord exist? Because the nonpower people scared of the avengers. They works with no regulation. The accord was there so the Avengers can't act as a global super-human police force unless the UN panel say so. So when a country under the accord is in trouble for example terrorism, the avengers can works together with the military
    http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Sokovia_Accords

    Steve and Bucky had injured the German police squad that was sent to apprehend the Winter Soldier
    The squad didnt know Bucky was not involved with the bombing. Steve and Bucky also caused property damage including the tunnel and also hurt the civilians, who gonna take responsibility of this? Who gonna pay all the damage? That was why they need to be accountable of their own action.

    The accord stated that if they dont sign, their status will RETIRED. Team Cap broke the laws. The raft was there because team cap continued to break the law. Not only the accord, the normal law, like illegally crossing the boarders and property destruction. Why? Do you think normal jail can hold them? They can easily escaped.

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    1. Account Deleted on Chapter 1 Thu 29 Sep 2016 03:23PM UTC

      They were also denied right to an attorney right to counsel and other due process. The police were there to KILL Bucky, which is blatantly unethical (a violation of due process). If the accords were ratified they could have sent in metahumans to take him into custody. As it turns out they were wrong.

      The panel that would oversee them was unelected.

      Again the accords in theory were ok if they could be changed. In practice they basically stripped due process

      Forced retirement itself is unethical as well

       

      Even if they break the law you don't deny the right to attorney.

      http://thelegalgeeks.com/2016/05/10/why-the-sokovia-accords-are-unconstitutional/

      Tony recruiting a teenager into a fight was also stupid

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      1. Anon (Guest) on Chapter 1 Fri 30 Sep 2016 02:45AM UTC

        Hmm, I read that "Tony's whole goal the entire time was to take them into custody for trial. He even told Cap at one point if he signs the accords that would give them goodwill enough to maybe get Bucky into US holding rather than Wakandan jail. Rather than standing on behalf of Bucky at trial and investigating and proving his innocence, Cap chose to take Bucky and run which doesn't speak much to the "I didn't know what I was doing" defense to onlookers"

        The police went after Bucky armed because he is dangerous, a enemy of state no.1 and most wanted terrorist with insane bodycount for decades. I know it's unethical but people scared of him. I think the shoot-on-sight had more to do with his potential danger and the near impossibility of catching someone like Bucky alive, rather than being out of pure spite. You can't quite compare the ethics of this situation to our concept of due process because we simply don't have individuals as dangerous and seemingly omnipotent as those portrayed in these movies.

        And the Shoot on sight was because Rosa ordered that, there is no prove it was sanctioned by the Sokovia Accords. And when Bucky was taken - alive - into custody, Cap asked to get Bucky a lawyer - and E. Ross, just laugh, yes, that's wrong, I hate that scene.

        If the accords were wrong, fine, Steve can discussed/negotiated/compromised/ratifed, dont just dismissed it just because it was a bad law. 117 countries signed the accord. That should mean something. No law is perfect.

        Tony recruiting a teenager was not for the purpose to fight team cap. Tony sees Spider-Man as the ultimate non-lethal weapon to help subdue his wayward friends without hurting them (much). Spider-Man can technically disarm Team Cap members and trap their limbs in webs from a distance, which could have been a fine way to arrest them. Team Iron Man members were all unwilling to use lethal force, so they were losing to Team Cap without Spider-Man intervening. 

        Tony WAS worried about involving an untrained teenager - He tells Spidey to keep his distance and just web ’em up. Peter took it upon himself to fight way more than Tony asked him to.

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        1. Account Deleted on Chapter 1 Fri 30 Sep 2016 02:58AM UTC

          In one fanfic Cap said he was open to a review and hearings. That's a fair point. I can agree with some of that. But being powerful doesn't mean you can be denied lawyers. None of the guys on the raft had lawyers with them. They could have had a judge via videoconference (it's been done in life). The Raft's existence prior to the accords being signed (An aircraft carrier takes years to build) means that the government was looking for an excuse to lock up metahumans without due process.

          Ross was involved in the accords nonetheless. There's another fanfic where even the writer (pro accords) concedes Ross was an asshole about the whole thing (even when Tony presents airtight proof Zemo committed

          There's a fanfic called when the truth comes out. Basically the point is both sides messed up. Cap also admits that Tony was planning to modify the accords but at the time he didn't see. His comforting Wanda was because he should have seen the bomb crossbones had on him. That's an entirely fair point.

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          1. Anon (Guest) on Chapter 1 Fri 30 Sep 2016 09:15AM UTC

            Yea, I know being poweful doesnt mean being denied lawyers. I did some research, since the Raft is situated in international waters, no government has legal jurisdiction - and, given that there is no flag state running the Raft, laws do not apply. This is why the Avengers can be imprisoned without trial. And since the raft was built prior Sokovia accord, I dont think the rest of the UN know about the raft. Ross just abusing his power as the US secretary of defense and he used the Sokovia Accords to legitimise it.

            Still, there are 117 world leaders, not all of them corrupted. Someone should vote Ross out. Team cap can come forward provide evidences about this.

            And both sides messed up, I agreed with that.

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