Comment on Interlude

1. hugs4neth on Chapter 1 Sun 05 Jan 2025 11:48PM UTC

   

   ok back on my translation bs with mind/heart/animos/animas

   ive been rereading the odyssey with a focus on epithets and formulae, and one of my favorite formulae is "so spoke [blank] but in their heart* they knew [blank]"
   In Ancient Greek, the word used is φρήν, transliteration phrēn. Lattimore (Odyssey, 1.420) translates this as "in his heart." the wikipedia page on the term translates it as "mind," but notes that Greek philosophy located this place of thought in the torso rather than either the head or the heart, Fagles translates it as "deep in his mind," with his usual embellishment. Fitzgerald also translates it as "mind". but here's where things get interesting: in the perseus word study tool (perseus.tufts.edu my beloved), this word is defined as midriff. and this page https://kosmossociety.org/core-vocab-phren-phrenes/ goes deeper in and honestly this whole thing is so fascinating. note-worthy about that article is that it cites an instance (iliad 16.480-83, when patroclus kills sarpedon) where phrēn is used literally, to refer to the spear going into sarpedons stomach.

   i will be back with more on this shit. so far, it also seems to me that the fem/masc distinction between different types and modes of thinking occured in latin, not in greek, which is very interesting.

   the same word (although different case) is used in line 1.42: "So Hermes told him, but for all his kind intention he could not persuade the mind of Aigisthos." (lattimore) Here, Lattimore gives us "mind" for phrenas. fagles gives "hardened heart" (there is absolutely no textual basis for "hardened". once again, fagles likes to embellish. i simply give his translations because 1) they are most commonly read in english schools and 2) i think he does a very good job giving the sense of the text, even as he is perhaps not entirely faithful to it). Fitzgerald does not mention the heart or mind at all, so he is fairly useless. his translation of this passage turns it into a rhetorical, saying "Friendly advice—but would Aigísthos take it?" Which is, in my opinion, accurate to Zeus' characterization and certainly aids the reader in imagining this scene of complaining gods, but is objectively unfaithful to the Greek.

   anyway i think this is all very fascinating. (why am i commenting here? because you have expressed some modicum of interest in this shit and therefore are more interested than literally all of my friends)

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