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1. slowcookedvig (Guest) Fri 14 Aug 2020 03:34PM UTC

   Thank you so much for this. Besides protecting BIPOC and others from harassment, you've created a tool for people like me.

   Receiving comments - even supportive ones - makes it hard for me to hear the characters' voices in my head. It makes it hard for me to keep to my plans for a plot. I keep freezing up, being afraid of failing to please people who enjoyed one of my past stories, wanting praise even if it isn't for the ideas and characterizations and plots that I initially wanted to write. (I mean, yeah, feedback makes writing better, but I'd rather get that from a trusted beta than from strangers.)

   I've tried all kinds of work-arounds - asking people not to comment (but that makes people assume I'm trying to engage in shipwars, and leave even more comments, both positive and angry), backdating fics, leaving off tags for popular characters or relationships, deleting unfinished fics because the stress was too much, orphaning finished fics. Many of these work-arounds end up working against the purposes of an archive. (AO3 got a Hugo for the way it makes searching effective; trying to hide a fic so it won't get comments is just silly. Why even post fanfic at all if I'm going to do that?) So it will be nice to have something that allows readers to read, and writers to write, and people who want to engage with each other to do so.

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2. 1. you sound like a snowflake (Guest) Fri 14 Aug 2020 08:33PM UTC

      Lmao dude if you don't want people to leave comments on your in-progress fics, just pre-write them all and upload each chapter as if you hadn't finished it already. No one needs to feel like the bad guy for leaving a comment on a fanfic. Authors tend to dry beg for comments anyway, you're just speshul.

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   2. 1. YouAreAShitWriter Fri 14 Aug 2020 09:06PM UTC

         

         ...Dude.

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      2. Oh look (Guest) Fri 14 Aug 2020 09:33PM UTC

         >snowflake
         Lmao tells me everything I need to know about you

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      3. Lapse (Guest) Fri 14 Aug 2020 10:05PM UTC

         Shouldn't you be standing under a bridge somewhere?

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      4. JKFic Sat 15 Aug 2020 04:08AM UTC

         

         Stop using snowflake as an insult. Snowflakes are particles of snow. That's all. What's next? "Raindrop"? "Leaf"?

          

         I am in the opposite boat of a lot of people in this discussion. I hardly get ANY feedback, positive or negative. I WANT feedback, even negative feedback, just because it would prove that people are actually reading my stories and have something to say about them. In the April 1996 issue of Guitar Magazine, KISS' Gene Simmons was interviewed, and he said, "There's no such thing as bad press, there's only press. When you don't get press, that's bad." That's how I feel, that I'm not getting press. Hell, I've been imagining a response I'd give to a question on my one F/F story, except that nobody's actually asked the question yet!

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      5. 1. cthchewy Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:29AM UTC

            

            If I were familiar with the fandom, I would read the fic and ask the question, but alas... :)

            I do think it's a bit of a "grass is greener" thing. When you work in small fandoms with very little traffic, it's easy to feel stuck in a feedback-desert, just waiting for one comment to flow your way. But I think there can also be a lot more freedom in those spaces in that no one will object to what you're writing.

            On the other hand, being involved in popular corners of fandom may bring you plenty of comments, but there's the risk of getting caught in a wank war. It ain't fun.

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   3. Elf (Elf_Herself) Fri 14 Aug 2020 11:32PM UTC

      

      I know other people who either panic over comments, or just don't want them at all, and this feature will be a great help to them. They're not worried about harassment; they don't have any problems with criticism - they just don't want to interact with readers. And some of them have avoided posting for that reason, and I'm glad there will now be an outlet for anyone who just doesn't want comments.

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3. Hannibalsbelle (Guest) Fri 14 Aug 2020 09:48PM UTC

   Oh dear..antis are mad they can't harass people.

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4. 1. Bingo (Guest) Fri 14 Aug 2020 10:32PM UTC

      Exactly! But let's call them what they are. They are neo-puritans. I know the moniker "antis" has been used for a while in fandom, but let them bear the weight of the mantle they've chosen to swath themselves in. To me, "anti" implies a possibly righteous air (as far as words go) they don't truly deserve. You can put "anti" before any word and sound noble when you're not.

      They are neo-puritan authoritarians. Or, if you'd prefer, they are digital book-burners (not different than physical book burners). As a writer, I believe we should embrace very succinct descriptions.

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   2. 1. JKFic Sat 15 Aug 2020 04:13AM UTC

         

         >"You can put "anti" before any word and sound noble when you're not."

         No, you can't, as "anti-black," "antisemitism," "anti-immigrant," etc., etc. prove.

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      2. 1. cthchewy Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:32AM UTC

            

            In a historical context, some (all?) of those "anti-" causes have been wreathed as righteous fights to preserve the status quo. Anti-immigrant sometimes still is.

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      3. Anon2 (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 11:46AM UTC

         Anti is sometimes a label thrust upon people.

         I asked a particular fandom to tag a particular ship with that ship name, so I could filter the tag, and before you know it, people were calling me a bully, an abuser, an anti, a harasser...

         Shippers and antishippers both don't have the market cornered on kind, considerate behavior, because humans gonna human.

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5. 🐝 (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 02:58AM UTC

   I just want to say thank you for implementing this feature. I once had a bad experience with being harassed through fic comments (though not on ao3) and it put me off writing for a long time and really soured me on receiving comments even after I started again. Being able to disable comments is going to take a lot of anxiety off of my shoulders. It's a feature I've wanted for a long time and I'm thrilled to finally have it.

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6. jxkuzure Sat 15 Aug 2020 05:46AM UTC

   

   Checking in on Aug 14th to see the ‘no one can comment’ feature already showing up on new and to-be-edited works (at least for me). I will still be patient for the block/blacklist/or mute feature still in the works.

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7. labime Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:58AM UTC

   

   Thank you for this. A lot of people had been asking for that option. I hope it will create a more comfortable space for content creators who want to post their work without unwanted feedback.

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8. A survivor (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 11:15AM UTC

   I know there's talk of adding a way to block people, and that'd be nice.

   Especially if I can ban them from giving kudos (and if after you block them their kudos are removed and, if a work is bookmarked, be it public or private, it is also forcibly removed, that'd be cooler but jard to implement)! It's uncomfortable when you do give a boundary and someone decides to cross it.

   Like I've had bigots give kudos to my stuff and it sucks ass. Also have had lolicons, shotacons, and those into (underage) noncon interact with my works that, in both the tags and notes, to please not interact with my vent ficlets that have CSA because I'm writing from my own personal experiences and the only reason I'm publishing it is for other survivors to relate to and maybe use as catharsis.

   I don't have the spoons to care what people are into, even if it really disturbs me or makes me feel sick. I just want my boundaries respected. I don't think that's asking much.

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9. 1. transam1980 (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 11:39AM UTC

      I think expecting people to not interact with you if you don't like their other interests, and attempting to enforce that people only consume your works in a particular manner, are not appropriate boundaries to have. You should be able to choose not to interact with people you don't want to. You shouldn't, and don't get to choose how people who view your work behave otherwise.

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   2. 1. Anon2 (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 11:43AM UTC

         I think it's perfectly reasonable not to want lolicon fans kinking on CSA ventfic, personally.

         Can we stop them, even with a block button? No, anyone can read anything we post. But we can make them feel as unwelcome as possible, and hopefully they'll re-assess their degree of decorum.

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      2. 1. transam1980 (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 01:08PM UTC

            You would like to make people unwelcome because of their interests, and think it is indecorous for people to read and engage with fic posted on a website for fic.

            You can stop them reading, by posting fic in a space you can control, and approving people you let in after requiring them to self-disclose their trauma so that you can decide whether they're allowed to read your fic and will engage in a way that you deem appropriate. You will still have to accept that you cannot control the latter unless they read it in front of you and submit to your personal control. If you must control the latter, then you should restrict sharing your fic to real-life events only, and even then - what if someone has an unexpected reaction? Will you just shame them for it and make them unwelcome too?

            But while you refuse to do so and explicitly post your fic on a website where you do not control access and people are not required to self-disclose their trauma and are not required to engage with fic solely in the way the author approves of, you are opening yourself up to the discomfort you so dislike and which is rooted in your judgment of others. After all, if someone leaves a kudos, you only know if they've engaged appropriately and don't kink on your work by investigating them and making a value judgment based on your perception of their online footprint. If someone doesn't kudos or comment, you have no idea how they engaged with your work. And if someone comments in a manner you disapprove of - you can delete it, and now you can withdraw the ability to receive comments at all. But that still won't stop anyone engaging with your work in a manner that you don't approve of.

            And expecting that it will, attempting to enforce restrictions on people's actions through shame and social exclusion? That's not socially desirable, nor is it something that is something that this particular site is equipped for. Because attempts to restrict people's actions simply because you do not agree with their thoughts are inappropriate and wrong - we are not talking about someone harassing you, or causing you harm, but simply someone reading your story while you're assuming that they have a perspective you don't like.

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         2. 1. Anon2 (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 03:44PM UTC

               No, actually, I don't assume. I investigate.

               I do not wish to hear applause from people with certain mentalities, and kudos should be able to be deleted at the discretion of the author who is creating free content. Without which there would be no website at all.

               Personal attacks about my 'judgment' of others aside, let's keep it more objective, shall we?

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            2. 1. Gil (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 04:40PM UTC

                  Out of curiosity - since you do not make any guesses or assumptions, how is it that you are able to investigate whether any given reader is a CSA survivor or not + exactly how they relate to your fanfic?

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               2. Original Survivor Threader (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 08:25PM UTC

                  Hey I get you think you're, like, defending or helping me but I think they think I'm you, and that's reflecting badly on me. I don't want their replies to be shut down. I want to hear them out. I want to see if there are ways I could grow. It's important to me, so please don't make that harder for me.

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            3. Original Survivor Threader (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:31PM UTC

               Hi, sorry for not responding until now, as I was asleep. Anon2 was not me, but I've read this response to them and will reply it, as I think it's also directed at me? If not, I apologize.

               I do see your points, and they are fair.

               I do want to make it clear that I do not actually want to people disclose their trauma? They shouldn't have to. And no matter what, it is impossible for me to fully remove them from my content (such as, if even my idea could be implemented, all they'd need to do is have another account). I understand that.

               I cannot force people to not read my works, or to not enjoy it sexually. However, I do admit I still struggle to see the issue of asking those who are still actively into it to leave my works alone and block those who cross that boundary, as it registers in my mind to being similar to leaving a comment? Like if someone commented "hey I found this hot", I'd feel very uncomfortable because while yes, I cannot control how people enjoy my work, and am not here somehow magically force them to not be interested in my work that way, seeing someone who has specifically requested for those people not respect boundaries and deciding "well, I see that this person as asked people to not make sexually charged comments about this, so I guess I'm going to ignore that." I guess, in my mind, it reads more of less judging what they're into and more being upset about a boundary being crossed, but I do also admit that, no matter what, that does stem from me feeling triggered regarding those specifically reading my stuff for arousal, therefore judging them.

               I guess my original comment stems from when someone left kudos, I checked their profile (I get excited to see what other fandoms people are in who interact with me), and their bookmarks were filled with underage noncon that were specifically tied to the kink (I don't think kink is the right word but I'm blanking, apologies) of it. I returned back to my dashboard immediately after that. It was a good reminder about how AO3 works, and maybe I honestly should just not check who gave kudos so my dumbass doesn't trigger myself haha

               I fully admit this wish to block people and kudos is a kneejerk reaction to myself being triggered, and I also admit I need to learn to do better on interacting with others and letting myself react better.

               That said, I do also want to bring back attention to the other part of my comment that seems to have been brushed over, though I don't think on purpose or with malice, since I did write more for the 2nd reason.

               What about bigots? I've also gotten kudos before from someone (they linked their social media sites plus their username is the same as their main handle) who actively is a giant transphobe. I've argued with this person on said other platforms after they called my friend a slur. I can't force them to not read my stuff or interact, but man it still really sucks to have someone who pushes transphobia liking your works when, like, you're trans yourself.

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         3. angry survivor (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 05:01PM UTC

            It's not objective. What about CSA survivors that indulge in such content? That enjoy it, even dare say sexually? Or that prefer positive depiction as a way to reframe and recontextualize? And find negative content triggering? You never know why someone is doing something unless they tell you. Snap judgements don't help anyone and survivors have competing needs. I prefer kinking my experiences, thanks. Which means that yes, I write and enjoy underage noncon, sometimes incestuous. It's one less power my abuser has over me, personally. If I didn't have it, both writing and reading, I literally wouldn't be here. On bad days, it helps me through as a way to process.

            It's about competing needs. I tag so I don't trigger others. I only hope one day to get the courtesy when it comes to "Nasties DNI," which yes, I find incredibly triggering. Good job. This hostile environment, including comments such as yours, can cause panic attacks and other forms of PTSD flare-ups. I'm sure you don't care, seeing as I'm a dirty loli/shotacon but. The flippant use of terms to describe underage especially has me shaking, unable to use the archive for weeks at a time. At least the underage and noncon tags are an archive warning. I have to add a new variation on sick pedo fuck and kiddy diddler to ao3 savior almost every day. They're usually author rants and Tumblr style tags that can't be filtered. I always add the authors as well but I can never catch everybody. These are tags even when I want G rated family fluff fic with no intent to kink the content at all. The word pedophile even shows up on kinky content between two adults, well above the age of majority.

            You sure showed me, I guess.

            While I would never interact with someone who has asked me not to, however rudely, both you and the user above can't know why someone is doing something unless they disclose it, and they shouldn't have to.

            I am tired of this discourse from every direction. When they say it harms survivors, what they mean is it harms those that cope the right way, and those that cope differently should be silent and not deal with their trauma in a way that might be healthy. (And no, this isn't an approach for everyone. Trauma and its solutions are different for everyone, and what's healthy expression for one can be unhealthy for others. It's healthy for me).

            If you're the same one against noncon and awful ships from up thread, I encourage you to especially consider that perspective. I wasn't going to comment on this thread because it's a shit show, but I couldn't let this pass.

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         4. 1. Original Survivor Threader (Guest) Sat 15 Aug 2020 08:06PM UTC

               As I said in my other reponse, sorry for taking so long as I had gone to bed. I am not Anon2, and that original comment was the only comment I've made on here. I'm proshipping and not here to attack people for their kinks, even if it's one that personally squicks me. I just block tags and go on my way, or backout if I ended up not reading the tags right.

               If indulging with CSA and incest sexually is something you enjoy and feel empowered by, more power to you, and I hope it's helping you. I'm sorry you've also suffered through something terrible; we deserved better.

               I'm also very sorry my comment triggered you; I should have been more aware of other survivors, as when I was younger I also did interact with such content in a kinky way, but for me, personally, it ended up doing more harm than good.

               I don't want you to have panic attacks. I don't want you to get harassed (I've had antis climb into my comments more times than I can count, it's annoying as all hell). I want you to have somewhere safe to interact with that kind of conent. I do not register you as "dirty" or "bad" or "nasty", nor would I have done so if you weren't a survivor.

               I think my original comment, where I brought up things making me feel disturbed and sick, wasn't written well enough, as it wasn't meant to be a jab at those who enjoy the topics, but instead explain how those topics make me, personally, feel. I didn't go about it right, and while it made sense to me, it hurt others, which was not my intention, and I'm sorry.

               And I'm also sorry those terms triggered you. I've seen people who use the 'cons terms that say they're different than those who enjoy underage noncon, so I was splitting it into those twp separate groups. I'm sorry that you keep having to find more tags to block since people won't just use the most commons ones, and I'm sorry you're exposed to their ranting about how you're somehow evil.

               Not being able to find fics you want because you keep getting triggered sucks. Sometimes AO3 is not my friend when it comes to me trying to block and I run into similar tags that also trigger me and make me feel judged. It is not a good feeling.

               Trauma survivors cope how they do. Unless it's actually illegal (aka actually harming people, not written/drawn stuff), I'm not going to judge the individual. I admit my original comment came off as judgy, and that was wrong of me. Just because my brain didn't read it that way doesn't mean I'm in the right.

               Both your response and the others have given me things to think about. I still would like an eventual way to block (scraping the kudos idea) and just like how you deserve your boundaries and triggers to be respected, I do think me politely asking "hey if you wish to use this to fuel arousal, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't leave sexually charged comments" isn't too bad? Or just trying to find a good balance of "I'm not here to judge but it'd be cool if you don't make any comments calling it sexy as that's triggering af"?

               I wasn't trying to prove any point, but what matters is, while not my intent, I hurt you and others like you. And I am deeply sorry. I hope that you will continue to heal and that one day you'll have reached a better place.

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   3. KannaOphelia Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:18AM UTC

      

      Hi,

      This script might help you. It is supposed to let you hide kudos and comments from particular users, so if seeing certain people react positively to your work upsets you, at least you can stop seeing those people in future.

      You can't control how people react to your work (and honestly they may not be responding the way you think, they might read vent fics and shippy underage differently). But the script might give you more control over your own experiences and reduce your stress.

      All the best.

      https://greasyfork.org/en/scripts/3577-ao3-personal-hellban

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10. the_marathon_continues Sat 15 Aug 2020 12:24PM UTC

    

    This is a wonderful addition!

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11. Birkastan2018 Sat 15 Aug 2020 03:37PM UTC

    

    Much consideration seems to have been given on the subject of inappropriate comments, but no consideration seems to be given on the issue of consumers who fail to comment at all. Is it possible to also implement a feature that allows creators to limit access to their work to those who DO leave written comments? The lack of substantive feedback on transformative works is a not insignificant issue that could be effectively addressed with such an option.

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12. 1. Seeking_Chaos Sat 15 Aug 2020 05:55PM UTC

       

       How would that even work? Plus you’d have zero guarantee of quality. People could just write anything.

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    2. i_dwell_in_darkness Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:22PM UTC

       

       Technically speaking, once a page's content has loaded, there is no way to retroactively limit it to user who comment. Measures like a time out would be highly disruptive and incompatible with varying work length, reading speed, etc.

       Therefore, the only way to limit works to users who comment would be to require that comment before the work's content is loaded, via either a pop-up form that can only be dismissed when a comment is submitted—similar to the TOS/Privacy Policy agreement checkbox—or an intermediate page—like the one that asks users if they are willing to view adult content—with a form that requires a comment to proceed.

       Either of those scenarios requires a comment before a user has actually read the work, which would most assuredly not generate the substantive feedback that you're seeking. About the only way I can see something like this implemented—not that I think it should!—would be to require a comment for a download.

       Last Edited Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:23PM UTC

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    3. 1. Birkastan2018 Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:53PM UTC

          

          I was referring to instances where consumers binge read multi-chapter works by the author (oftentimes multiple extensive works by the same author) without leaving a single comment. Under those circumstances it is certainly not unreasonable for those authors to restrict further access to their works or to future chapters in an ongoing story until a comment is created.

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       2. 1. i_dwell_in_darkness Sat 15 Aug 2020 08:25PM UTC

             

             Again, from a technical standpoint, this would be impossible without a mechanism similar to those described above. Even if you're only talking about multi-chapter works, the Show Entire Work option exists. Also, readers might not always visit chapters sequentially (e.g. a multi-fandom ficlet collection).

             Likewise, how would you propose to handle re-reads? Should the system differentiate between a reader who's binging for the first time and not commenting versus a reader who's commented faithfully on every chapter but has returned to reread the work? Are they required (via some pop-up/gate) to comment again in order to proceed, or does the system then have to index all of the work's comments to double-check that they've left one? Is a reader required to comment on every chapter they read, or do they only have to meet a certain average ratio threshold—e.g. 1 comment per 3 chapters? How will this system deal with page refreshes or users that have cookies turned off? Etcetera.

             I hope this doesn't feel like an attack, because I certainly understand the desire for feedback. But I can say fair certainty based on AO3's technical structure and founding principles that this sort of feature is never going to be implemented. Just as writers aren't required to tag (aside from the bare minimum of Not Rated/Choose Not to Warn), readers won't be required to comment. FWIW

             Last Edited Sat 15 Aug 2020 08:25PM UTC

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          2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sat 15 Aug 2020 08:48PM UTC

                

                I really appreciate your replies btw! And no, I don’t take it as an attack at all. It is just apparent that this and other similar hosting sites cater predominantly to readers, and I don’t understand why an option to give creators more control over access to their work is so impossible. Couldn’t it be as simple as giving creators the option to not allow pdf downloads of entire works? 🤔 And, giving authors an option to restrict their work to users who are logged on? If an author chooses that option and can identity which users are trafficking their work - wouldn’t it then be possible to allow authors to block access to those who don’t reciprocate via comments? I think no matter how it’s crafted, a mechanism to give creators the option to limit access to their work would go a long way in facilitating feedback that creators are sorely lacking.

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             2. 1. Topaz_Eyes Sun 16 Aug 2020 03:04AM UTC

                   

                   I don’t understand why an option to give creators more control over access to their work is so impossible. Couldn’t it be as simple as giving creators the option to not allow pdf downloads of entire works?

                   I'm not keen on the download options myself, and I wouldn't mind if we could toggle it off. That said, determined readers can simply copy/paste the fic into a word processor, or view Page Source in their browser, or screencap the fic to download it.

                   And, giving authors an option to restrict their work to users who are logged on?

                   On the Post New Work page, under Privacy there already is a checkbox for "Only show your work to registered users," who have to be logged in to see the work. You would have to be able to see which users have visited your work, however, and AO3 will never allow that for privacy reasons. AO3 doesn't allow us to see who's subscribed to our work, or a user's private bookmarks, either.

                   If you wanted, you could click the checkbox under Dashboard-Preferences to "Hide the share buttons on my work." This, along with limiting views to registered users only, will somewhat restrict access to your work. But it will not increase your chances of feedback, because no one is obligated to leave it. I understand your frustration with lack of feedback, I really do, but AO3 is not going to force it, either.

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                2. briar_pipe Sun 16 Aug 2020 04:24AM UTC

                   

                   (Commenting only as myself, not in any official capacity)

                   The download options fill an accessibility need. Some people can only consume fanworks on specific devices due to disability, and those devices require specific formats. Also, some people don't have regular internet access and need to save works to consume at another time. Either way, it's essentially impossible to prevent people from downloading text that they are displaying in their browser. AO3 just makes the results less awful for disabled people.

                   There was a period when I only had internet access at my local library. For every other site, I had to save the html page for fanworks using my browser options, but AO3's html download button resulted in a cleaner and easier to read document. That made the experience more pleasant and me more likely to write up a friendly comment to paste in the next time I was at the library. I was still able to save the works from all other sites; AO3's version was just more readable for me.

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                3. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 08:46AM UTC

                      

                      Hi there briar_pipe, I understand why the dowload entire work option could be great for some readers. I agree that it is indeed a useful feature. That being said, nobody pays for fanworks and nobody is entitled to it, so I don’t think there is anything wrong with giving creators options to restrict access to their work on a platform like this if it is technically possible.

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                   2. 1. . (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 11:40AM UTC

                         Ao3 is a project of the Organization for Transformative Works, a registered nonprofit that must abide by its mission statement. That statement includes "providing the broadest possible access to fannish activity". Adding a feature that denies accesibilty (as explained by briar_pipe above) goes against that and nonprofits can't violate their mission statement whether technically possible or not.

                         If you would like to work around this, some WIP writers leave Author's Notes or End Notes saying they won't publish the next chapter until they get a certain number of comments. This allows people to still access the work that is currently on Ao3.

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                      2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 11:54AM UTC

                            

                            But the option I’m inquiring about wouldn’t deny accessibility. It’s not like anybody would be asked to pay money for access to future chapters. All this optional feature would require is for readers to leave a comment every once in a while (like that allocation feature described by another user above). Leaving comments cost no money and take maybe a minute or two (or less) of one’s time... so how is that in any way restrictive?🤔

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                         2. 1. . (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:27PM UTC

                               As briar_pipe and yourself explaijed, you would remove the download and show entire work feature, restricting access to users with disablities and limited internet. As a few others have mentioned, you would be restricting access to people with anxiety disorders who don't feel able to comment.

                               What you are describing is a way for a person to use Ao3 to restrict access to Ao3. While a person may have to be logged in, once in, Ao3 itself doesn't restrict access. You want another layer where you, not ao3, are asking for users to login in a sense to your work. That's not broadest possible access. This is not to do with money; that's covered in the missionn statement as commercial exploitation.

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                            2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:59PM UTC

                                  

                                  I'm sorry, I'm truly not being sarcastic, I'm just genuinely trying to understand this. Giving content creators the option of exercising a feature that would ask readers to leave a comment (which costs no money and takes maybe a minute or two to do) before proceeding onto the rest of the story, or to their other works, is commercial exploitation?🤔I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how something that costs no money and takes virtually no time is "restrictive" in any way... As I mentioned above, if AO3 offered such a feature, I imagine many content creators would exercise this option and others would not. Consumers could always continue reading stories by authors who don't exercise this option if they are disinclined to ever leave a comment.

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                4. autumnsong Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:23PM UTC

                   

                   It's already possible to restrict your work to logged in users, however authors (or anyone) aren't able to see which logged in user accesses their work. Everything else would be a privacy violation of epic proportions.

                   I don't see what downloading PDF downloads will do. If the option didn't exist, there would be a ton of work-arounds and browser plug-ins to help readers achieve the same thing.

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                5. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:33PM UTC

                      

                      Hrmm...another user above mentioned a feature on some other site that imposed “allocation” restrictions -From what I understand, something like a reminder pops up that says “hey you’ve reached the max number of stories/chapters for the month; leave a comment to increase your allocation” or something like that (I’ve personally never encountered this anywhere before, but it seems like giving writers an option to exercise a feature similar to this would be a great solution 👍🏻) And as for comment quality, I don’t know what every author looks for in a review but for the majority of authors I know - even a brief “TY I enjoyed this” goes a really long way (especially given what many writers seem to experience today = getting thousands and thousands of hits, or readers enjoying their 100k word series without ever leaving a single brief comment in appreciation).

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                   2. 1. autumnsong Sun 16 Aug 2020 01:57PM UTC

                         

                         From what I understand, something like a reminder pops up that says “hey you’ve reached the max number of stories/chapters for the month; leave a comment to increase your allocation” or something like that

                         Honestly, I think this would be terrible. Fanfiction is free. No one should ever have to "pay" for it with comments.

                         getting thousands and thousands of hits, or readers enjoying their 100k word series without ever leaving a single brief comment in appreciation

                         I don't know how to phrase this delicately, but... Why would you assume those readers necessarily enjoy the fic? Sometimes, it's the only available content for your rare fandom or ship or it's a kink you love, and the fic is terrible, but you read it anyway. Unless you're arguing for honest comments and can seriously say that a "this is bad, but I love this ship too much to stop reading lololol" would be preferable to you over not getting a comment from the same person, or you expect people to lie and fake that they like your writing, this can and absolutely will backfire.

                         The point is: authors can't and shouldn't be able to force readers to engage with your work unless they want to. And a genuine comment by someone who wants to leave a comment is worth a hundred pointless comments someone is forced to make just to access a new chapter. I honestly feel that the people who enjoy the fic usually leave do comments, and the idea of coercing others into doing so to feed the ego of the author is deeply unpleasant.

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                      2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:05PM UTC

                            

                            Of course fanfiction is free! 🤗 And nobody is "owed" comments; it's just the kind and considerate thing to do if one enjoys the work and knows the author seeks them. Given that the feature I'm inquiring about is optional, if such a feature was offered (like this latest feature to turn off comments altogether)- then writers who feel like you wouldn't exercise the option, while other writers who seek more written feedback would. I'm not sure why offering content creators with the option would warrant any kind of resistance; this just seems like considering both sides of the coin to me.

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                         2. 1. ANON (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:26PM UTC

                               Locking out chapters or restricting content for comments is not remotely the same thing nor its it practical at all.

                               Turning off comments for a work allows the author not to see people's commentary on their stuff. Prevents interaction.

                               Blocking content or allowing authors to restrict it on commenting is NOT the same thing because it forces people to interact. (COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF THE OTHER ONE) This will not work. At best maybe youll get a few more heart warming comments but in general crappy comments with zero substance bc they arent motivated to interact beyond getting to the next chapter of a work they may or may not enjoy. Some people go and read something they think is ok but they are giving it a shot for a few chapters. So what do you want them to do "Could have potential. I like it so far."? "Bad grammar, but ill stick with it for a bit longer"?. Hell expect: esdfgd or ewsdfgdfsg3i4tjkg.

                               I doubt the ao3 team would even consider this bc its simply against their mission statement on accessibility. Plus the actual backbone of getting something like what you are proposing to work. They could use cookies to count the number of works consumed without commenting but thats easily bypassed via deletion/prevention of them. OR Save it somewhere to the server and cause even more bloat for themselves?

                               Not going to happen.

                               If you want to restrict your works for feedback, go find another platform. OR fork and make a site like ao3 and implement your ideas. Ao3's code is open source.

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                6. thegreatandpowerfultoaster Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:18PM UTC

                   

                   This is honestly just a massive Yikes for me. As a reader, I'd go elsewhere! I don't always feel like I have something to say, and a copy/paste comment of "wow, I liked this!" on a dozen fics seems kind of rude after what time goes into writing fic. As a writer, why would I force people to comment if they didn't actually want to, or have anything to say? Especially when I know what that feels like! I read garbage fics sometime and don't comment on those, because (as some people in these very comments could learn...) If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all. Also, I've seen writers start withholding chapters for comments, and let's just say they didn't get many more chapters out.

                   Honestly? You should probably just be happy if people are reading and/or leaving kudos. You're not entitled to feedback and readers shouldn't have a "monthly allotment" or whatever of reading of they don't feel like commenting. That's gross.

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                7. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:29PM UTC

                      

                      Hmm...I'm not entirely sure what kind of commenting cadence you're referring to, but the optional feature I am inquiring about would give writers an actionable way to deter silent readers who rip through extensive multichaps or a writer's entire portfolio of stories without leaving a single comment. You feel the way you do, and that is nice. I sincerely mean that. I assume if AO3 offered such an optional feature to content creators, you would not exercise that option. But I also know other content creators that would. And I'm not sure why offering such an option would be "gross". It's just considering both sides of the coin. Finally, nobody said anyone is entitled to or owed feedback. It's just the kind and considerate thing to leave for an author if you enjoyed their work and you know they seek it. 🤗

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    4. juniperberry Sat 15 Aug 2020 09:29PM UTC

       

       I'm sorry, I'm afraid I can't agree that this would be a good idea.

       Readers are not "consumers" unless they are buying something from you. In the sense that they "consume" your fiction--well, I'm in the camp that they still don't owe me anything, because I write because I have stories to tell and if people find those stories interesting, great! Sometimes they don't. That's okay, too. I work hard on my stuff but sometimes it just doesn't strike the right note, or it's too out there, or it's not as fun for others as it is for me. There are a billion reasons why that is, and there are a billion reasons why people don't comment.

       Frankly, punishing people for failing to leave written comments--especially when there are so many reasons, including ability and accessibilty, why they don't--is not going to do a good thing for the site. It would strangle it. Fandom is like 75% lurkers, it's not a bad thing.

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    5. 1. Birkastan2018 Sat 15 Aug 2020 09:42PM UTC

          

          That’s awesome that you think so! I’m not being sarcastic, I genuinely mean that. But there are many content creators that don’t feel the way you do, and choosing an option to restrict your work to those who engage/reciprocate via written comments is no punishment. Because you’re right - consumers don’t pay a penny for transformative works on AO3. It’s an option, and if a lurker is disinclined to ever comment, they are free to consume content from an author that does not exercise that option.☺️ It would have no bearing on accessibility to AO3 as a whole because logic dictates that not everyone would exercise the option. And if everyone did, I highly doubt it would “strangle” fandom. If actual access was on the line, I’d bet a kidney it would successfully motivate those who silently and voraciously consume fanfics to drop a comment every once in a while (which costs no money to begin with). ✌🏻

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       2. 1. juniperberry Sat 15 Aug 2020 10:46PM UTC

             

             I think we may need to agree to disagree. For one, I don't think the logistics of it would actually work. For another, I'm not talking about accessiblity because of "access to content," I'm talking about accessiblity as in "accessibility to programs that work with my disability," or even "internet connection." That might seem silly, since the AO3 is on the 'net and you can't read if you can't access it but internet access is not always smooth sailing. People gain and lose internet access all the time, and a lot of people download fic so they can read it later, because maybe they don't have internet at home. I'm even talking accessibility as in "I have a social anxiety disorder and the idea of commenting sends me into a panic," which is probably not super common but still a possibility.

             And dropping a comment may not cost money, but from my perspective, it shouldn't have to be an exchange. Someone gets to the end of a fic and leaves a kudos--great! I remember posting on LJ, where you could not see if anyone read your fic, let alone liked it, UNLESS they commented. And if no one commented, you had no way to tell if anyone read your fic at all. But that was LJ. This is AO3, and we have the kudos button. (And yeah, I know a lot of people don't like kudos. It's not a discussion I want to get into.)

             When I say it would strangle fandom, I mean the people who read while anonymous or without accounts, the people who are registered but who lurk--how would that work? I suppose if the authors in question want to restrict access, they would have to be content with a smaller available audience. And then those lurkers--that great mass of fandom--can decide to not read their stuff. A lot of people lurk anonymously--would this be restricted to registered users? That's just a reason to log off, read the fic, and log back in, and perhaps leave a comment and perhaps leave without even putting in a kudos. So then you have a situation where some authors get a smaller audience, and maybe they get the same amount of comments, but maybe they also see a drop, because those anonymous readers aren't commenting, or those registered users are saying "Screw that, I'll find someone else to read." You can encourage people to comment, but you can't make people do something they don't want to do in the first place.

             If commenting is something those creators are after, that's fine, but I don't think AO3 was built to be a comment-based exchange system. If some authors want to go that route, I suppose that's their right, but I would truly hope it would not be implemented here.

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          2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sat 15 Aug 2020 10:51PM UTC

                

                I totally agree that it is wholly their right, and I don’t see how making that an option for creators who seek written feedback is so dastardly. As I mentioned in my original comment, I question why it couldn’t be an option. Frankly, it seems odd that you or anyone would be opposed to the availability of such an option to those who seek it, given that it wouldn’t have any impact on you as an author if you don’t choose to exercise it.

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             2. 1. juniperberry Sat 15 Aug 2020 11:52PM UTC

                   

                   I don't think it's dastardly. I just think it's unfeasible, and it frankly doesn't feel okay to me. As for why I an author would be upset--well, authors are often also readers.

                   Like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

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                2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:12AM UTC

                      

                      I really appreciate your considerate response. I’m a forward thinker, and most definitely think it’s feasible! 😅 I think it’s just a matter of putting in the time and effort to try and shift the current environments we’re seeing in fandom to be a little more reciprocal for both sides of the coin~ 😊 I’m an avid reader as well (I identify as a consumer first and foremost) ✨

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             3. bloodwrites Sun 16 Aug 2020 07:22AM UTC

                

                I have a social anxiety disorder and the idea of commenting sends me into a panic

                This has been literally me in the past. Actually, it's pretty common.

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             4. 1. i_dwell_in_darkness Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:28PM UTC

                   

                   ^This! I’ll often agonize over my comment, sometimes for literal hours, because I’m worried that I’m going to offend the author. I’ll absolutely adore a work, but sometimes all the mental/emotional energy I have at the time is for a kudos/bookmark. My bookmarks are full of fics tagged as “To Comment,” including some of my most favorite fics of all time, and I already feel guilty enough scrolling through them.

                   Last Edited Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:28PM UTC

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                3. ... (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 07:47PM UTC

                   I have one and I manage still to write fiction that often results in me being told to kill myself. Get over it.

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                4. 1. bloodwrites Sun 16 Aug 2020 08:31PM UTC

                      

                      Wow. That's ableist AF. The simple fact that you think it's that easy for some with legit anxiety disorders while you claim to have one yourself is mind-boggling.

                      FTR, I've written fiction in the past that resulted in the same kind of horrific comments and it pretty much shut me down for years.

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                   2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:03PM UTC

                         

                         Oh, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding bloodmakesnoise. I never once stated that I have any anxiety disorder. While there are certainly times when I get nervous about things, or the idea of certain things make me uncomfortable - I could never in good faith claim to suffer from an anxiety disorder, as I recognize that it is a serious illness and I wouldn't want to water down its meaning in any way.

                         _________________________

                         Ugh, I'm sorry bloodmakesnoise, I don't know how this thread stuff works and I'm getting notifs from AO3 out of order and I thought your comment was addressed to me. I was like... "hmm... I never I said had an anxiety disorder.... that is hella serious..." Please disregard my comment above, sorry!

                         Last Edited Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:17PM UTC

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                      2. 1. the_marathon_continues Sun 16 Aug 2020 11:30PM UTC

                            

                            They weren't talking about you :) it was the user with the '...' as their name, who said to 'get over it'. Oooh, I now see that's an anon comment. These comments are showing why this is so necessary!

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                5. juniperberry Sun 16 Aug 2020 07:54PM UTC

                   

                   Thank you for speaking up, I know I appreciate your point of view on this.

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       3. ladyoflosgar Mon 17 Aug 2020 03:15AM UTC

          

          Perhaps a good way to encourage the marginal lurker to become an engaged commenter would be to update the "Thanks for leaving kudos" and "You have already left kudos here :)" messages to include "But you can leave as many comments as you want!" (if, in fact, the author had comments enabled). Perhaps a different message for non-logged-in readers. Doesn't seem as pushy or like a punishment. If it were a sitewide automatic message thing it wouldn't seem like any author in particular was being needy, but that AO3/the OTW was encouraging feedback culture.

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       4. 1. juniperberry Mon 17 Aug 2020 03:20AM UTC

             

             That is a solid suggestion. I'd much rather gently encourage feedback than require it.

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    6. Elf (Elf_Herself) Sun 16 Aug 2020 07:15AM UTC

       

       At best - at absolute best - if a feature like this were implemented (it won't be), the result would be copy-pasted generic comments.

       And no, there is no way to validate "must be original and new comment." Saying "not only must you leave a comment, but it can't just be I enjoyed this very much; thank you for writing it in order to see the next work," would just guarantee that viewers of your works drop to basically nothing.

       More common would be angry comments. "Eff U; lemme read the next thing now." Or exquisitely detailed critiques of a work. Or a list of randomly-generated Shakesperean insults.

       Part of why it wouldn't work is that readers are not consumers; we are not customers; we are not "paying" for fic with our kudos and comments. We are part of a community that includes writers, readers, artists, vidders, bookmarkers, and fans who comment on their fandoms elsewhere.

       If you're going to talk about "limit readers who don't comment," how about "limit writers to finishing their WIPs before they can publish new works?"

       It doesn't work that way because this is not a business arrangement; there is no contract here; nobody owes anyone any kind of writing or other creative work. That includes comments. The solution to "readers don't comment enough" is "build a relationship with your readers, so that they want to talk with you." However, if you only want readers who will comment, you'll have to pick a venue that's not open to the public - Dreamwidth will let you lock posts to a particular list of people, and you can insist "must comment on this one to get access to the next."

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    7. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 10:15AM UTC

          

          “Part of a community”? 🤔 hmm... the definition of community that I’m aware of reflects a group of people who all do their part. Of course we don’t pay for transformative works, but reciprocating through written feedback if that is what the author seeks is still the kind and considerate thing to do. the author already sacrifices time and effort to create and contribute the work to begin with - I’m not sure why they’d have to do anything more to warrant a simple written comment in appreciation. I guess what’s odd to me is why anyone would be resistant to the presentation of an option like this. I imagine many authors would exercise this option, and some may not. If a reader doesn’t want to ever comment, they would be welcome to continue silently consuming stories written by those who don’t exercise the option.

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       2. 1. juniperberry Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:59PM UTC

             

             Commenting is part of being in a community, you're right about that. But part of being in a community is understanding that we all have different levels of accessibility and ability to engage with the world around us, and some will be more able to engage with us in the ways that we want and like than others.

             Furthermore, as many people have pointed out, the model you're suggesting is not the model for a community, but a transactional relationship. "I give you fic; you give me comments." That's not a community or a friendly relationship (which is what fandom and AO3 are founded on), that's an exchange of a good (a comment) for a service (the fic, art, etc).

             Also, you keep bringing up commenting as appreciation, and I have to join in with other commenters here--firstly, no one is owed a comment on their fic, anymore than we are owed specific interactions from other people. Secondly, just because someone has clicked on a fic, it doesn't mean they finished it. Third, even if they do finish it, that doesn't mean they liked it. I've read fic for my fandoms that I wish I hadn't, just because I thought it was bad but I was hoping it would get better. I'm not leaving any kind of comment on a fic like that, because I would have nothing nice to say.

             I'm glad you're seeing a problem and looking for a solution, but what I'm not hearing from you is any acknowledgement about the issues myself and others have raised regarding commenting. Many people have mentioned the importance of accessibility from the standpoint of disenfrancised groups, and you do not seem to want to take those issues and perspectives into account. The fact that you're avoiding replying to those specific points really makes me feel as though this is something you're doing to stir up emotions, rather than something you are genuinely trying to work out, because if you want more people to comment, you think about how to make it easier and more comfortable to comment, not how to restrict access.

             All that said, if you want to set up your own archive with AO3's source code, I'd be interested to see what it would look like.

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          2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 04:29PM UTC

                

                Hi juniperberry, the reason why I haven't addressed some of the comments regarding "accessibility" is because I think realistically, at a certain point - there needs to be a mutual baseline understanding of what "accessibility" means in the context of free fanworks in order to come up with a practical answer. If someone posits that typing "Thank you I liked this" after consuming a 100K multichap fic or a writer's entire portfolio of work for free is an insurmountable obstacle, that signifies to me that unfortunately - this person and I are at an impasse. And that is fine, people can agree to disagree, right? It happens all the time~ 🤗 Given that our baseline definitions of "accessibility" are different in the context of free fanworks, that person and I would just be talking in circles, and I don't think anyone here is interested in that.

                And of course nobody is "owed" comments. But it is the kind and considerate thing to leave if one enjoys a story and knows the authors seeks it, especially given that it costs no money and takes so little time.

                I fully agree that part of being in a community is understanding that we all have different levels of accessibility and ability to engage with the world around us, and some will be more able to engage in certain ways than others. Not everyone is going to be able to (or want to) leave a 5 page thesis in the review box for every chapter in an ongoing multichap story. I don't think any writer can expect that, and don't know anyone who does.

                What I have difficulty understanding, is how asking someone to submit a brief comment upon consuming an entire work, or 60k words in (or whatever the feature's parameters may be) negatively impacts readers in disenfranchised groups. You mentioned that if I wanted more people to comment, I'd think about how to make it easier and more comfortable to comment, not how to restrict access. But realistically, I'm not sure how much easier or accommodating commenting could get than how things are right now. 🤔 It's not like there's a mandatory commenting cadence where readers have to comment on everything or every chapter, nor is there a minimum word count imposed in the comment box requiring some lengthy message. Some authors are kind enough to offer emoji keys for readers who might struggle to convey their feelings; readers are also free to leave comments in any one of the many languages AO3 supports, and can also leave comments anonymously if they are shy. All of these different options and avenues for leaving a comment seem pretty facilitating to me.

                The feature I inquired about would operate like any other option: some writers would exercise the option, while others do not. Readers could always continue to silently consume fanworks without regard for comments (exactly as things are now) by choosing to read works by authors who do not opt into this feature.

                I realize that AO3 openly shares their source code, which is fantastic! The only reason why I submitted this inquiry when I did is because I noticed that the site rolled out a new feature related to comments (the ability to turn comments off altogether), and wondered - could they also consider an optional feature that addressed concerns about the lack of comments? I hope this is concern is something AO3 will consider in the future, as I think it's beneficial to look at both sides of the coin in any situation~🤗

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             2. 1. Daphne (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 05:26PM UTC

                   The needs are totally different. The coders priortise tools that curb harassment, such as disabling comments completely or disabling anonymous comments. Next on the list is muting and blocking.

                   Not getting enough comments is not in the same need bracket as not being harassed.

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                2. juniperberry Sun 16 Aug 2020 05:42PM UTC

                   

                   Okay, I don't know if you are aware of this, so I will proceed as if you're not, but: when putting "accessibility" into quotes like that, it really comes across as though you don't believe people have issues with it, and that's a baseline ableist problem we're having. I've already mentioned the fact that there are people who need programs to interact with the internet because they cannot type or have difficulty typing, in which case your "extremely low bar" is actually pretty fucking high.

                   People already do the bare minimum--it's called a kudos button. That's the equivalent of "I liked it but I can't formulate a comment for whatever reason." A lot of people don't like it because it means people don't comment, but again: accessibility for the reader.

                   Your feature is an interesting idea, but as others have said, it would not be a good fit for AO3 because AO3 is about accessibility. This comment feature was implemented to allow authors--particularly POC--to turn off comments on their work because of consistent comment harrassment. That's it.

                   I noticed you still haven't responded to the criticisms regarding what your proposed feature would do--which, as one person said, would be to leave a . or a space, rather than an actual comment. Even if the feature required mulitple characters and cases, that doesn't mean people would comment--they could just string together a line of letters of varying cases, and they move on. I agree that leaving comments on a fic you like is kind, but passive-aggressively forcing people to comment is not kind. It's withholding part of the story, which again leads to the idea of a transaction--I gave you this, now you give me that. That's not a friendly relationship, and that's not a community. That's a business transaction.

                   Again, you want to create your own archive with this feature, that would be interesting. But it would go against the idea of AO3 being accessible for all readers, as well as the balancing of freedom of content for all creators.

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                3. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 06:31PM UTC

                      

                      I put "accessibility" into quotes because it is a qualified term in the context of free fanworks and may be understood differently than the way the word is typically used. Under the logic you've presented, it seems that anything and everything that impedes complete and immediate access without question, or requires any input from the user could be viewed as conflicting with AO3's intent of facilitating accessibility. I wonder why similar arguments aren't made against AO3's decision to allow writers to restrict access to their work to logged in members. 🤔 As I understand it, obtaining membership may not cost any money - but it isn't as simple as creating a user name and password. One is required to obtain an invitation first, and wait for their membership to be approved. I imagine that under your logic, one could argue that that is an impediment to "accessibility" in the context of free fanworks as well - but it is a feature that AO3 has offered nonetheless. And once again, it is optional. Anyone who is not comfortable with logging in could continue to consume endless free fanworks from authors who have not exercised that option. I suppose at the end of the day, what is most confusing to me is this notion that under your definition of "community" - such an option shouldn't even exist for content creators. As for your mention of random letters in lieu of an actual comment, I'm sure offering an optional feature like this would involve many similar issues that would need to be fleshed out before it could go live. I don't know how staff would choose to address that - maybe giving creators the ability to block users who leave sham "reviews" like that? I don't know. But it just seems odd that some people are resistant to the mere possibility of such an option being available. If someone doesn't like it, that's fine. They don't have to exercise it.

                      Oops, sorry to leave you hanging juniperberry but I have to finish dinner. Chat with you later~ 😊

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                   2. 1. juniperberry Sun 16 Aug 2020 06:57PM UTC

                         

                         https://archiveofourown.org/diversity

                         There's the statement. You'll notice that they want as few restrictions as possible, to make the Archive available to as many people as possible, of all kinds.

                         As for restricting access to registered users--1) I have codes. If you've got friends who need them, hit me up. I want to say there was an option at one point for codes to go to people who want them, and I think I volunteered for that, and yet I still have a handful. I may be thinking of a different site, though.

                         2) Content can be restricted like that for two good reasons, off the top of my head: one, some people don't like the idea of under-16s reading their porn, and they lock it to the extent the Archive allows, and two, some fandoms have issues with people who will harrass authors anonymously, and some authors don't want to deal with it.

                         As for codes, this is from the "Get an Invite" page: "To get a free Archive of Our Own account, you need an Invitation. By submitting your email address to our invitation queue, you confirm that you are at least 13 years old, and if you're in a country whose residents/citizens have to be of an age older than 13 to consent, you are old enough to consent to the processing of your personal data without our obtaining written permission from a parent or legal guardian. We will use the email address you submit only to send you an Invitation and to process/manage your account activation. Please don't request an Invitation unless you've read the Terms of Service and agree to abide by those Terms. " So basically you just have to send an email, and you get a code to create an account, with some legal obligations in there. That's it. They send 5000 codes a day and the queue was less than 2000. Not a big barrier to register-user-only content.

                         Last Edited Sun 16 Aug 2020 07:02PM UTC

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                      2. 1. anon (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 07:20PM UTC

                            Just an aside, making an account sounds a lot more difficult to newcomers than it is (something to actually improve accessibility could be making that clearer? idk). It's the same as literally any other website where you enter your email, get a message, click to confirm, then go make your username and password. There's just a delay of ~a day before you get the email to go confirm your account, which they use to stop spam bots.

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                         2. 1. juniperberry Sun 16 Aug 2020 07:30PM UTC

                               

                               Thank you for pointing that out, I think it's been a bit too long since I made my account to remember that delay. Seriously, thanks. ♥

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                4. Elf (Elf_Herself) Sun 16 Aug 2020 06:57PM UTC

                   

                   nobody is "owed" comments. But it is the kind and considerate thing to leave if one enjoys a story

                   And you seem to want to make "kindness" mandatory.

                   That's not how kindness works.

                   I'm not sure how much easier or accommodating commenting could get than how things are right now.

                   I'm not either, but part of that is that people who have technical issues with commenting don't have to. Once you make it mandatory, you have to consider the many edge cases that currently fall under "if this is a problem for you, skip it."
                   * Screen readers that convert text to speech - speech-to-text software is different and may not work with AO3's interface
                   * People who can click links but don't have the manual coordination to type (including those with certain disabilities, or hospitalized with injuries)
                   * People reading on devices where they can't log in
                   * People reading on devices with a slow, glitchy, messed-up keyboard - like an ereader browser
                   * People who go into a panic spiral at the thought of outreach to a stranger

                   Dismissing any of these concerns is ableism - "it's not a problem for me, so I don't think it should be a problem for anyone else, regardless of their circumstances." Saying "of course those people wouldn't have to comment" leaves you where we are now, because there's no way to require comments from some people and not others based on what kind of disability they have.

                   There are ways to encourage comments. One is to request a particular type of feedback: "Where do you want to see the story go next?" or "What do you think about Character X's actions in this chapter?" But requiring feedback means a whole bunch of concerns that can be ignored if it's optional.

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                5. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 08:37PM UTC

                      

                      It seems that under the logic presented: anything less than absolute, zero input, immediate unfettered access to all (already free) fanworks without question is deemed ableism and should not be considered under any circumstances. But I wonder how the optional feature I inquired about is any different from another optional feature that AO3 currently has: and that is, to allow writers to restrict access to their works to those who are logged in members of AO3. By your logic, that is ableism, too because it creates an access impediment for someone who cannot log in through their particular reading device, right? Yet, it is something that AO3 considered and implemented because it recognized that as an optional feature - it has no bearing on the accessibility of the archive as a whole. Like all optional features, realistically: some authors would exercise said option and some would not. And any reader who doesn't ever comment for whatever reason could continue silently consuming as many works as they wanted from authors who don't exercise that option, just like they can now.

                      Much as been said on this thread about how dastardly and gross it is to "force" kindness. But expecting writers to keep posting endless content without any reasonable expectation of positive feedback and/or insisting that an optional feature like the one I merely inquired about cannot/should not ever be considered = is this how kindness works? 🤔 Seems pretty one-sided to me, and a departure from how many view the concept of "community".

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                   2. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Tue 18 Aug 2020 07:49PM UTC

                         

                         And yet, writers have been creating and sharing fanfic for decades (...centuries, depending on whose definition of "fanfic" you use), without any guarantee of feedback at all. When fanfic was published by paper, and mailed out or sold at conventions, it was often several months between writing & publishing, and several more before any feedback, and maybe that was a postcard or letter. Maybe there was no feedback unless the author went to conventions and heard people talking about their fic. They knew if the fanzine got sold, but they didn't get reactions other than that.

                         Now there's hit counts and kudos options on every story, but somehow a person saying "Yay" with a symbol doesn't count as enough feedback. Can they just copy-paste the kudos symbol into the comment field? Or are you thinking a comment needs to be more than what's currently allowed for comments?

                         The feature of "require comments" has been considered. Almost everyone who ever started a fanfic archive of any sort has considered it, because we all know that most authors would like comments. And then they promptly said "No," because (1) it's a technical nightmare to implement and (2) requiring comments is not going to result in better feedback for authors - it will result in a few extra desultory "I like this" comments, and a huge swarm of "fuck you for making me write this" or worse.

                         Encouraging comments needs to be done by community connections, not software.

                         1) There's no easy simple universal software system to require comments.

                         What kind of mechanism are you thinking of? A bit of script that keeps you from clicking on new links until you've commented? (Easy to circumvent by closing the tab.) Something tied to your account - can't read more of this author until you comment? (Doesn't work on anon.) Anon accounts tied to IP address - so that the next user on that library computer can't read more?

                         Do you think a comment on every work should be required, or every 4 works by an author, or something else? How long do you think those comments need to be? Because when you say you want comments to be required, I have no idea what you think that looks like.

                         2) There is absolutely no way to require supportive, friendly, positive comments, that most authors would like to receive.
                         At absolute best, with a whole bunch of filters to block "bad" comments (...which are welcomed by some authors; there are authors who say "give me critique; tell me what didn't work, where the typos are, what canon details I messed up.) - at best, you get a copy-pastable bit of comment text that everyone uses on all works to skip past to the next one. And then we get authors complaining that "Thanks, I enjoyed this" isn't enough, because they've got 92 comments that say that, and none at all that say anything else, and they know those comments were written under duress and might be lies.

                         I really don't understand what you want to happen, what you think a "require comments" feature would look like. I suspect you've never worked with datasets from forms with required fields that some users don't like.

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                      2. 1. Birkastan2018 Tue 18 Aug 2020 08:56PM UTC

                            

                            As I mentioned earlier, I don't know the mechanics of how this optional feature would work. Perhaps a text box can pop up reminding the reader to leave a comment if they close the tab for the final chapter without a review? And after doing this 4 consecutive times on 4 stories (or whatever the number is) the reader won't be able to unlock another story? An earlier user above mentioned seeing an allocation barrier of some sort on another site that pops up after a certain number of stories or chapters have been consumed, and reminds the reader to leave a comment to access/unlock further content. I didn't realize any existing site even had a mechanism like that. Whatever that is seems like it could be a great starting point. And as for those who leave nonsensical characters in lieu of comments, as I mentioned before - maybe administrators could also consider offering a meaningful block feature for writers. Lack of feedback aside, I know many writers who receive the most horrific, abusive comments (for ex: "Just die" or "Go kill yourself", "I hope you get gang raped") and yet, at the end of the day - blocking these awful users just means they can't message you. That doesn't mean these terrible people can't still access the writer's work. Same would go for readers who leave sham comments in bad faith.

                            No matter what, I imagine that any optional feature like this would have multiple issues (some that have been considered and some that have not) that would need to be fleshed out before it went live.

                            As for your point about writers having written and shared fanfics for years and years and were never guaranteed feedback - that may be true, but dire lack of reader engagement doesn't seem to have been as much of an issue in the past. I don't have firsthand knowledge of what feedback culture was like "back in the day" but when I speak to veteran authors who have been writing for fandoms for 10, 15+ years, the near universal sentiment seems to be: feedback culture has dramatically changed. I identify as a consumer, not a creator. I've written a few mediocre things and I can't art to save my life. That's not why I participate in fandom. I'm a reader/consumer first and foremost. And what I consistently hear is: there's been a shift in the readership. I'm told that 10, 15 years ago, readers understood the importance of feedback, and that was reflected in the comments received. It seems like feedback ratios today hover at around 1% for writers (if they're lucky). I genuinely wondered what could have precipitated such a change. A long time artist and writer surmised that it might be generational - because kids today grew up in the era of "free to play" and have an expectation that they are entitled to all entertainment content for free with zero input, no questions asked. I don't know if that's true (I don't play video games and I'm not a sociologist so I couldn't say). But frankly, if reader engagement wasn't so comically abysmal we wouldn't be having this conversation.

                            I don't know of a single author that isn't happy to see even a keyboard smash. They'd just like to know that their hard work is appreciated, they don't care what language the comment is written in, how long it is, how short it is, and I don't even know of a writer who has an expectation of a comment for every update. What they don't appreciate is knowing that someone clicked the kudos button for all 26 stories in a series without a single peep. Some people might say they don't care, that just seeing hits is enough, that it's a labor of love and they're writing for themselves and writers should just be happy that they're bringing joy to others.

                            And that is wonderful. I truly think that is fantastic. But the reality is, not every content creator feels that way and that's perfectly valid, too. I'd rather see a platform like this consider both sides of the coin and offer an optional feature like this for writers who value and are motivated by written feedback rather than have another author stop writing, sharing publicly, or in worst case scenarios - deleting their accounts and the stories I loved reading along with them.

                            I don't know what the mechanics of something like this optional feature would this entail, but I hope AO3 will at least consider the concerns of writers in this context.

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                         2. (2 more comments in this thread)

          3. Elf (Elf_Herself) Sun 16 Aug 2020 06:40PM UTC

             

             Community is not a 1:1 relationship. If I walk through my local main street and visit a dozen shops and only buy things from one, I'm participating in the community of those shops I didn't buy from. If everyone does that, with the same shops, likely those shops will move elsewhere... unless, of course, they're given rent-free space and unlimited signs to draw people in, like authors are at AO3.

             the author already sacrifices time and effort to create and contribute the work to begin with
             And the coders, tag wranglers, other volunteers, and members of OTW have sacrificed time and effort to create the space for those authors to host their works. Do they read "for free," and only non-member non-volunteer readers have to leave comments?

             How about the other authors, who write enough fics to make the fandom popular so that readers are looking for it? As a reader, I'm more likely to browse a fandom with 2500 fics than one with 40 fics. Some of those 40 may be excellent, but I'm more likely to find what I want in a larger pool, so those other authors helped bring me to the fics I like.

             How about people who rec fics, in bookmarks or tumblr or twitter or elsewhere? They may not have commented directly, but they can lead in other readers who do.

             For that matter, just fans of the fandom can do that. I watched The Old Guard because I saw gifsets and meta for it on Tumblr, and then I read (and commented on) some fics. Those fans have contributed to the author's "payment," because I sure as hell was never going to click on Random Action Movie Thing on Netflix.

             Setting aside whether authors "deserve" payment in the form of comments, and who is obligated to make that "payment"... there's still big reasons why this won't be implemented.

             There are at least two major issues with your idea:
             1) How would you require *good* comments?
             Because if you don't have specific comment content requirements, what you get is a swarm of ascii dicks. (If ascii dicks are banned, what you get is "I hated this and I hate the comment requirement.") Even from neutral or well-inclined readers, for mandatory comments, you wouldn't get "I loved the part where X and Y joked in the car." What you'd get is "This is my mandatory comment." At best, you get "♥" or "Loved it; thanks." And while many authors currently would be happy to get that, I suspect they'd be less happy after someone makes a Greasemonkey script that's "push a button to leave Loved It Thanks in the comment section." Right now, there's no auto-comment scripts. There would be.

             Oh wait... comments allow image tags. The copy-paste generic comment wouldn't be ascii dick pics; it'd be animated gifs.

             2) How do you imagine it would work? You read five works by an author and a comment popup shows up? What would be the minimum character count?
             Does it work by javascript, which can be disabled in the browser? How does it work with screen readers, for readers who are listening to works instead of reading them? How about anonymous readers; how would their comments count when they log in later - or would all comment-locked fics be logged-in only? Would it require a comment after a certain number of hits, or only after some indication a fic has been read - or would someone who opened a cluster of fics to read the author notes be stuck leaving a comment for something they haven't read, in order to open more fics?

             3) Are you okay with a blacklist of "authors who demand comments" being attached to a script that just hides them from view entirely? Could be an AO3 filter option; could be a third-party browser plugin.

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    8. bloodwrites Sun 16 Aug 2020 07:25AM UTC

       

       Get a website. Password lock it and only allow people in who you know will comment.

       Problem solved.

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    9. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 08:51AM UTC

          

          Of course that is always an option. I’m just curious why there doesn’t seem to be any consideration given to this issue and why creators can’t have the option of exercising more control over who accesses their work on platforms like this if it is technically possible.

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       2. 1. bloodwrites Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:04AM UTC

             

             Because that's not what AO3 is for.

             If you only want to share with a select few, send it directly to them or host it somewhere where you can.

             TBH this reminds me of paywall sites "you've read your allocation of fic for the month, comment to increase your allocation"

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          2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:10AM UTC

                

                Oh, I didn’t know paywall sites had features like that. It would be great if AO3 could offer a similar “allocation” option for authors to exercise on this platform if they so wish. And it wouldn’t conflict with AO3’s TOS because leaving comments cost no money. It’s just a kind, courteous way of showing one’s appreciation to the author that takes maybe a minute or two of a reader’s time. And an allocation option like this would merely remind some readers to use a feature that is already there. This is fantastic!

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             2. 1. AkaiMirage Sun 16 Aug 2020 01:14PM UTC

                   

                   Have been reading and writing fanfic/nonfannish works since the early 2000s, and nothing would put me off a story faster than an author who holds the chapters "hostage" by demanding a certain no. of reviewers/comments.

                    

                   There are plenty of reasons why one would not leave comments, even for a story they enjoy.
                   Language barrier, is the first that comes to mind.
                   Maybe it's because English is not my 1st language, and so I can recognize the struggle with trying to find the words/phrases for what one is trying to say.

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                2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 01:31PM UTC

                      

                      Sure, I understand. Given that what I'm inquiring about is an optional feature, I imagine some content creators would exercise this option while others would not. And if a reader is "put off" by it, they can always continue consuming stories written by authors who do not exercise this option. Also, for what it's worth, I'm not sure what your experiences with authors are, but the authors I know are always elated to receive a kind comment in any language. I'm not sure why anyone would think a comment has to be left in English. 🤔 I also know that even the briefest message of appreciation, like a simple "thank you I liked this" goes a long way. 🤗

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                   2. 1. cthchewy Sun 16 Aug 2020 07:01PM UTC

                         

                         I'm not sure why anyone would think a comment has to be left in English.

                         I don't know if you've consumed fanfic in a second language before, or if you've navigated bilingual spaces, but a lot of people think it's common courtesy to respond in the same language as the content they're consuming. You don't know how the author will respond otherwise. I've seen foreign language comments be ignored when English comments all received responses, and I've seen author responses along the lines of "lol wut? speak ENGLISH!!"

                         Even without having those experiences with fanfic authors in particular, the "speak English!" mentality is so prevalent elsewhere that it's hard not to pick up on it. Just recently, I played a game with world chat and saw that as soon as a bunch of Russian players started chatting, the English-speaking players shouted at them to speak English or get off, etc.

                         Another thing is, it's sometimes difficult to divorce the way you respond to conversations in real life from the way things can be done online. In real life, if I met another person of the same ethnicity in a place where we were the minority, I still wouldn't whip out our presumed common language until we'd established that we both spoke it. Because why the hell would you want to babble something at someone when they can't understand a word? Things are a little bit different now with online translations being available, but it still feels impolite to put the burden of the extra work on the other person. That's why ESL readers are more likely to machine translate their comments and then explain/apologize for it rather than just commenting in their first language. That extra step, though, does put more stress on them, so many would prefer to lurk until their English is better.

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                      2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 08:07PM UTC

                            

                            Oh my goodness, for anyone to respond like that in any context (fandom or otherwise) is unbelievably rude. AO3 supports many different languages for a reason. I'm genuinely shocked and saddened to hear that you've encountered this. I guess I'm lucky; I've never seen an author respond thusly to a non-native English speaking reader. In fact, almost every fic author I've encountered has made it clear in no uncertain terms that they just want to hear from us - and it doesn't matter how long the comment is, or what language feedback comes in. (I don't play video games, so I don't have any experiences in that space).

                            As someone who used to teach English to students preparing for TOEFL exams while I was in undergrad, and has (attempted 😅) to study two foreign languages in both formal and informal settings, I totally get what you mean when you say sometimes it's hard to divorce how one would communicate in real life with how they would communicate online if you're trying to do so in a foreign language you're less comfortable with. And in that case, if the user doesn't want to comment in their native language or leave any comment at all for whatever reason - they could always continue silently consuming as many fanfics as they want from authors who don't exercise the option - just like they can now. 🤗

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                         2. 1. cthchewy Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:36PM UTC

                               

                               It's not something I've seen on AO3 in particular, and my recollection of specific incidences is foggy. But if you're American you might be aware of the English-only movement, for example. It's unfortunately common to extend that "American exceptionalism" attitude to monolingualism, lol.

                               Anyway, beyond the language barrier, there might also sometimes be a culture barrier. International fans may be less likely to engage with creators because that gap between author and reader is bigger in their culture and they treat fanfic authors more akin to professional authors than other fans. In Japan for example, it's less common to post fic in online archives. They prefer to print physical copies and sell them at comic markets and conventions. There is very little engagement with the author outside of this direct sale, and no engagement at all if you bought a used copy. Readers will talk among themselves about the stories, but the authors are usually respected as semi-professional.

                               I understand you mean no harm when you say these users are free to go on their way and consume fics from other authors, but it does come across as a bit discriminatory that someone who is a fan of your work would need to overcome not only anxiety over their language proficiency, but also their own cultural conditioning just to access more of your work. And that's not even touching the disability stuff that others have mentioned.

                               I'm not saying it's wrong to restrict access to your work, but it would be best to do that on your own site where you can make it clear that you're doing so because you only want people you trust to be able to read your fics or something like that. You've framed it as the reader's choice to move on to something else. But if framed from the author/site side, by implementing that sort of option AO3 sends the message that "authors can choose to discriminate against certain types of readers". Discrimination being optional is just not a good look.

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                            2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 10:22PM UTC

                                  

                                  I'm Asian American, but I've never heard of the "English-only movement" in fandom until you mentioned it, and I'm truly disgusted to learn this.😔

                                  Language barriers aside, it's funny that you mention a possible cultural component to this because I'm not sure if AO3 breaks down traffic by country like fanfiction.net, but the authors I've had a chance to discuss this issue with all shared the same thing - the overwhelming majority of their readers seem to be from the US and Canada 🤔 Granted, I actually don't think that is definitive (just because you're reading something from the US or Canada doesn't mean you're not a recent immigrant, or someone who might feel a "cultural barrier" to commenting for some other reason, right?) But as an Asian, I kind of view it like this: in my culture, and in the traditional Asian household I grew up in - people didn't wear shoes in the house. This is just something I got used to, and to this day, I don't wear shoes indoors. I'm just not used to it. But there have been plenty of people over the years who are not Asian, who have been in my house (apartment, rather 😅) and some of them were straight up uncomfortable taking off their shoes. But I briefly explained that unfortunately I don't wear shoes indoors and that I'd be happy to give them house slippers if they weren't comfortable walking around my flat in bare feet or just their socks. I think it's fair to consider that a form of cultural barrier, right?

                                  But I don't think asking them to adhere to my cultural practice was discriminatory against them in any way. Especially when I offered an option to try and address whatever they might be uncomfortable with in taking their shoes off. I guess that is why I view commenting the way I do, and why I inquired about this optional feature.

                                  I'm not a sociologist, and can't definitively opine one way or another whether the act of leaving a brief comment on a fanfic is specific to any one culture. But if the writer places value in that form of feedback, I don't think it's fair to deem asking for it discriminatory against anyone. Especially given that platforms like AO3 already have several features in place that could potentially address a discomfort that might be associated with creating a comment (like the ones I mentioned earlier: being able to comment in many different languages, authors who kindly offer readers emoji keys for those who struggle to put specific feelings about a story into words, giving users the option to comment anonymously if they're shy, etc.)

                                  I love and appreciate what a global community this platform is. And I understand that some readers are very specifically disinclined to ever comment for whatever reason. But I think there is always merit in looking at both sides of a coin in every situation, and I hope AO3 will consider an optional feature in the future that can address the concerns of a wide swathe of content creators as well as readers.😊

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                               2. 1. cthchewy Mon 17 Aug 2020 04:17AM UTC

                                     

                                     To clarify, I'm not saying there's an English-only movement within fandom, just that the one outside of fandom effects the willingness of ESL fans to engage with English material in any language except English. I'm saying this happens.

                                     I'm Asian American as well, but the shoe analogy doesn't work here. AO3 is not your house. The comparison would work if you were talking about your own site where you create the rules, and it would work for blog-style sites like LJ/DW where the point is to carve out a little space for yourself and you can choose to block access to everyone, i.e. shutting the door completely. You have the right to refuse all visitors if it's your house.

                                     In contrast, there really isn't the option for a "private" profile on AO3, not in the way you can make personal blogs private or friends-only. (Privacy options on AO3 are there to stop people from outside the site from accessing your work if you don't want them to, like a bot harvesting your info for a search engine, but do nothing to stop them if they access the material up front.) So here it's more like setting up a stall at an open market offering free goods. You don't set your own house rules here - they're set by the venue.

                                     If there were another fanfic site geared toward maximizing feedback, sure, options to force a minimum level of commenting could be implemented. I would be curious to see if they're effective. However, that doesn't align with AO3's mission for maximum access. The TOS FAQ states:

                                     What do you mean by "world-wide, royalty-free, nonexclusive license"?
                                     This means the Archive can make your content available to other people (subject to any login requirements that apply) without paying you. We will never charge for access to the Archive or otherwise sell your content. You can put your content anywhere else you want, too.

                                     I don't think charging and payment are only monetary here. Racking up points for doing X things is common in "free to play" online games. AO3's license prevents them from ever implementing anything that would make users need to rack up points for commenting just to access more of the site. They can't give authors the choice to make their works essentially available only on a "premium" tier of access to be unlocked by comments.

                                     As to that login requirement in the statement, having the option to restrict access to your works to registered users is different from requiring them to rack up comment-points. First, you only need to register once, not continuously. Second, that option is listed under "privacy" when posting a fic. It's meant to restrict access to bots, not people who access the site up front.

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                3. Seeking_Chaos Sun 16 Aug 2020 01:34PM UTC

                   

                   It’s a good thing you’re not running this website, because it would be utter garbage.

                   Last Edited Sun 16 Aug 2020 01:34PM UTC

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                4. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 01:43PM UTC

                      

                      I guess it all depends on one's perspective. I know authors who have deleted their AO3 accounts along with their stories and no longer publicly post their fanworks because it was deeply disheartening for them to see tens of thousands of hits and comically low feedback on their fics. Not sure why presenting something like this allocation option to creators would turn the site into "utter garbage". Just seems like considering both sides of the coin to me. 🤔 Authors who want to exercise the option could, and authors who didn't want to wouldn't. Just like this new feature which allows writers to turn off comments altogether if they so wish.

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                   2. 1. Seeking_Chaos Sun 16 Aug 2020 01:58PM UTC

                         

                         It’s already been explained to you multiple times. No form of a paywall on a free website is a good idea and you will not get the results you’re looking for.

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                      2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:13PM UTC

                            

                            Comments cost zero money and the feature I'm inquiring about is optional. Therefore, this is not a form of "paywall".

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                         2. 1. Anon4 (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:30PM UTC

                               You want to make a potential reader pay with comments as opposed to being free to read.

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                            2. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 02:38PM UTC

                                  

                                  Oh anon, you aren't seriously equating a brief written comment with monetary payment, are you? 🤔 Not having to pay any money for entertainment content is a meaningful, consequential thing. Offering an optional feature like this is not the same thing as being forced to pay real cash for access to something.

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                               2. (2 more comments in this thread)

                5. magimagica Sun 16 Aug 2020 03:24PM UTC

                   

                   .

                   ^ you mean well. I also understand the frustration of low reader engagement beyond someone hitting a kudos button instead of writing a review, however short it is. But if I was forced to comment to proceed to read, I would be comment with hitting space or full stop once as my comment, if the criteria was that low of a bar to clear.

                   No need to reply - kudos vs comment culture has also changed a lot since modern social media and I do remember the days when Naruto fics on FF.Net had a wealth of comments for 100k word fic.

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                6. bloodwrites Sun 16 Aug 2020 08:54PM UTC

                   

                   I sincerely hope that's sarcasm. If it's not, you've completely missed my point.

                   You're looking for a culture that doesn't exist on AO3, and will never exist on AO3. Thankfully.

                   Wattpad is closer to what you're looking for.

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                7. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:08PM UTC

                      

                      I was serious actually, that wasn't sarcasm. I never encountered a feature like that on any website that hosted fanfiction before, but do think that offering such an option could be a viable step towards addressing the concerns many content creators have when it comes to feedback. I'm not sure what you mean by "culture", but the only thing I hoped AO3 would consider in inquiring about an optional feature like this was looking at both sides of the coin. 😊

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                   2. 1. bloodwrites Sun 16 Aug 2020 11:14PM UTC

                         

                         A feature like that *doesn't* exist on any site that hosts fanfiction because authors who withhold fic for comments are almost universally derided within fandom.

                         *That* is the culture here on AO3.

                         But, I believe what you want is closer to the culture on Wattpad.

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                      2. 1. Birkastan2018 Mon 17 Aug 2020 01:15AM UTC

                            

                            That’s interesting, given that most creators I know are generally unconcerned with being “derided” for seeking feedback, they’d just like an actionable option to require one every once in a while. 😊

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                         2. 1. bloodwrites Mon 17 Aug 2020 01:26AM UTC

                               

                               Please reread. Withholding fic for comments is almost universally hated. Merely encouraging feedback is fairly common.

                               I'd like to see these most creators who want comment-walled fic. I reckon they'd be few and far between. Just looking at this comment thread I would have thought that would be obvious.

                               But hey, bring them in. I'd be interested to see the numbers.

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                            2. 1. Birkastan2018 Mon 17 Aug 2020 01:46AM UTC

                                  

                                  I think for many fic writers who share this sentiment, they’re tired of the back and forth. Even the faintest whisper of seeking written feedback is slapped with an accusation of discrimination or ableism or otherism or any number of other startling terms that seem to have become popular in recent years to try and guilt content creators into falling in line with this notion that it is wrong of them to seek meaningful reciprocation from consumers in the form of written feedback. They have jobs, families, academic commitments, some are living with their own disabilities, and at the end of the day - the easiest response to their comically abysmal lack of feedback is to stop posting publicly. And I think it’s a shame. I have no obligation to prove anything to anyone. I merely submitted this inquiry because I wondered whether AO3 would consider an optional feature that would be a step towards addressing an issue that many creators feel is important. You know, maybe look at both sides of the coin. I didn’t submit this inquiry to drag other users into something for the purpose of providing fodder to anyone who cannot discuss a point on the merits.

                                  Have a nice day~ 😊

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                               2. 1. bloodwrites Mon 17 Aug 2020 02:03AM UTC

                                     

                                     I honestly think that if you're not writing fic for the love of it, if you want something *more*, you should be writing original, for money.

                                     If you are writing fic for the love of it, whether you get comments or kudos or hits or nothing at all, it doesn't matter.

                                     Seriously, try Wattpad. They measure success by # of hits, and the culture there is far more amenable to comment-walling (not via technology, but by the author stating they'll only put out a new chapter after X # of comments).

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                                  2. 1. thegreatandpowerfultoaster Mon 17 Aug 2020 04:31AM UTC

                                        

                                        With the use of the word "portfolio" from OP plus their idea as a whole...yeah. I second this suggestion. Write original work and sell it, or use that as your "portfolio". And this honestly sounds like something wattpad would implement, at least that'd be in line with what I saw from them before I quit posting there or visiting the site.

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                                     2. 1. bloodwrites Mon 17 Aug 2020 05:55AM UTC

                                           

                                           I didn't catch that word, but awkward. TBH I'm kinda confused now, because the two fics on OP's account both have very healthy comment sections, and even perfectly acceptable kudos:hit ratios, despite the author telling their readers they consider kudos a 'meaningless gesture'. So I'm not sure quite what they would expect from a comment-walled system.

                                           I compared a fic with one of mine with the same amount of kudos. I have a quarter the number of comments and more than twice the hits they have. And I consider my stats quite respectable. I'm more than satisfied with them.

                                           *shrug*

                                           I think the problem here is the assumption that hits=readers.

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                8. Hmm. (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 09:18PM UTC

                   The Terms of Service: https://archiveofourown.org/tos

                   The first sentence is: "Our goal is maximum inclusiveness of content."

                   Making your content exclusive (the opposite of inclusive) violates the TOS.

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    10. autumnsong Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:16PM UTC

        

        Even if such a feature were implemented, it would not take the quality of the comment into consideration and would likely make the comment quality decline overall. Someone could comment with "comment" or "next cptr pls" or even "wow, this is bad" just to 'unlock' upcoming chapters, which I think would be counterproductive.

        You can't force people to engage actively with your work if they don't want to. Nobody is "owed" any feedback, and I say that as an author who values feedback a lot and comments at length on every fic I really enjoy. But as a reader, the idea that I'd have to earn the right to continue reading by commenting would put me off so much that I'd be inclined to either only leave one word comments on that fic (even on fic I leave long comments on now!) or give the fic a pass altogether. Authors holding their works hostage with things like "I will only continue if I get X comments on this chapter" have always been the laughing stock of fandom, and this would be the same.

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    11. Kukki90 Sun 16 Aug 2020 05:33PM UTC

        

        Seriously? Forced comments? A good way to drive some readers away. I don't expect comments, and am pleased when someone does. That being said, I'm not writing for comments, I'm not writing for hits, I'm writing because it's a driven need in myself. Of course, when I first started writing 3 years ago, comments and hits were important, but I soon found out that I don't give a RA if anyone reads my fics, I don't care what anyone thinks of them. Is it nice to get comments, sure. Am I upset that I don't get them? Nope.

        Having a feature that forces comments, sorry. You'd be driving people away.

        Last Edited Sun 16 Aug 2020 05:38PM UTC

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    12. 1. Birkastan2018 Sun 16 Aug 2020 05:41PM UTC

           

           That’s great that you feel that way, but not all content creators share that view~ ☺️ Given that the feature I’m inquiring about is optional, if offered - you wouldn’t have to exercise it if you don’t want to and user experiences with your works would continue on exactly as they are now.🤗

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        2. 1. tabaqui Tue 18 Aug 2020 04:05PM UTC

              

              Your repeated use of smiley emojis doesn't make what your'e saying any less annoying or (as in the case of pfft, abelism!), offputting. AO3 doesn't seem like the site for you. At all. In any way.

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    13. Oddly enough... (Guest) Tue 18 Aug 2020 03:39PM UTC

        ...you don't seem to have commented on the last two fics you bookmarked, which you bookmarked months ago. Apparently you have time to write reams of entitled, ableist tl;dr here about why AO3 should go against it's site mission to prop up your ego, but not to tell people that you liked their fic.

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    14. 1. Birkastan2018 Tue 18 Aug 2020 04:28PM UTC

           

           I bookmark fics as a placeholder of titles that looked interesting to me but that doesn’t mean I’ve read them yet.😊 There is nothing wrong with asking a platform to consider an optional user feature that could potentially address what many users consider a legitimate concern. The only thing odd about this is the fact that anyone would feel threatened by the mere inquiry or prospect of an option that they wouldn’t need to exercise if they didn’t want to.

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        2. 1. Ok (Guest) Tue 18 Aug 2020 05:12PM UTC

              "option that they wouldn’t need to exercise if they didn’t want to". An option for the author to turn on that removes the option for readers. 🥺That readers can "choose" to comment to continue *if* they are capable of commenting creates a scenario where people who can't comment will be excluded from participating all together (which goes against the mission of the site) or people must comment . a space or 'comment' or 💩 which defeats the purpose of what you want: creating comment culture. 🤔We can all see that you are sincere in your wish to create a more recripocal relationship between authors and readers but as many people on this thread have explained, this specific solution won't work specifically on Ao3. It can be tried on LJ, FF.net, your own archive or mailing list, etc but for Ao3, some other idea will have to be thought of. 🤗😋😙🤪😉😊😎

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    15. road_rhythm Fri 21 Aug 2020 03:25PM UTC

        

        "[C]onsumers"?

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13. hanareader Sat 15 Aug 2020 06:00PM UTC

    

    I really like this as I keep comparing my work to other authors and getting jealous of their comment count to the point that it is debilitating. Removing comments outright (and hopefully later kudos and bookmarks) would nip that in the bud. I wouldn't know how many comments i would get so I don't have to worry about it. I could focus on writing for the sake of writing (and not spending so much time replying to comments too instead of writing). I could still have the motivation to write just from the hits/subscribers alone knowing people want to read my next chapter. I would just remove the feature on the last chapter because even if i didn't get comments at least its complete and I don't have to feel insecure anymore. I know the intent was for blocking harrassment but to me this is really useful and productive, thank you archive.

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14. 1. jxkuzure Sat 15 Aug 2020 06:40PM UTC

       

       I get your sentiment, buuuuuut the only way that can work if removing kudos/bookmarks from showing up on YOUR end just like you can disable ‘show hits on my work’ to others in settings. The only suggestion about the ‘jealously’ part is to focus on your writing rather than ‘why cant I get this many comments’ or ‘why dont I have as many kudos as this work here?’. Its a bad mindset especially if your only ‘reason’ to write is for the kudos and comments. And for comments you do get, you can always reply later or not at all OR since the comments feature is up, disable all comments.

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    2. 1. hanareader Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:24PM UTC

          

          Yup, that's what I mean. Like not receiving any kudos or bookmarks or comments at all, not just hiding the feedback from showing up in my email but actually NOT receiving any feedback, i.e. removing the kudos/comment/bookmark button. I try my best but my best is not working, I haven't updated in a while and I believe it's because I'm envious. That's why I think this is a good method to achieve just what you said, it'll stop my only reason to write being kudos and comments. Ideally the hits counter would be removed too from my knowledge and the only thing to keep me going would be the subscribers, which is private anyway so I can't compare to other authors. I feel like this ideal, for me at least.

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       2. 1. jxkuzure Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:17AM UTC

             

             Like I said, it'd be simpler to have it like the 'show no one my hits' option rather than a site-wide 'no kudos, comments, hits, or bookmarks' feature. Idk if you consider yourself a beginner or intermediate writer, but advice for me would be just to always write your best work and damn all kudos or hits. I started on AO3 about seven years ago and I was happy to even get a kudos, now with me being older (and alot more experienced in writing) I just simply post what I feel like is my best work. If I get a kudo, woo, but I like to know that I wrote what I felt is best. Hope it all works out for you and continue whenever you feel like you can.

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    3. JKFic Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:05PM UTC

       

       Envious, not jealous. Don't feel bad, you are from the first and you certainly won't be the last to make that mistake.

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    4. 1. hanareader Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:25PM UTC

          

          Got it, thanks~

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15. delilahdraken Sat 15 Aug 2020 07:11PM UTC

    

    This is a nice feature to have. I probably will never use it but I do not doubt it will be useful for others.

    As a side note re: the other discussion going on in this comment section:

    Do the people calling for censorship of content they would define as 'unfit' not realize that exactly this behaviour is how totalitarian regimes start?

    Maybe I am a tiny bit overly sensitive about the topic of cesoring anything, as I grew up in a country with a history of burning books/destroying art in the name of a 'righteous cause'. My grandmother saw books burning in the street. Later her teachers vanished over night because they dared to ask questions. Some time after that millions of people were dead for one reason or another, (maybe their religion, or who they preferred to sleep with, or they had a birth defect, or just because they were too curious), mostly because they didn't fit into the mainstream narrative of the country at the time.

    Maybe I am too sensitive or too naive or too 'willfully ignorant', (as someone once told me when I tried to have an unbiased dialogue about a topic of politics I know next to nothing about and cannot find neutral information on; I just wanted to understand).

    But do the people calling for censorship not see how exactly that censorship can lead to more people hurt in the long run than not censoring at all?

    [I apologize if my comment did not make that much sense. I am not a native speaker of English.]

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16. 1. JKFic Sun 16 Aug 2020 08:14PM UTC

       

       No apologies needed, you are right on point here.

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    2. knight7272 Mon 17 Aug 2020 10:53AM UTC

       

       well it made sense and speaking of totalitarian regimes i've notice how my own frustrations on them for causing the current global nightmare are slipping in

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17. Account Deleted Sun 16 Aug 2020 08:41AM UTC

    These users are going the way of Tumblr, I see. It was only a matter of time.

    Goodbye, Archive, and thank you for your service.

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18. ... (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 12:01PM UTC

    I can't wait for the muting / blocking feature because some people are simply like that (TM). I wish there was a similar option to disallow a work being added into a bookmark too since a reader's History will still record it and the subscribers can still be notified for updates. A friend had a racist encounter and that was where the goons went when they found out the comments were moderated... another felt discouraged from writing because the Very Well-Meaning Grammar Police (TM) would go after ESL people. Understandably not everyone is on board with these decisions / features, but to me it seems to be more beneficial than damaging.

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19. 1. Rain (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 04:47PM UTC

       Yes, it is unfortunate that there will always be those to take advantage and harass others. The good readers certainly make up for the bad. What about private bookmarks too? How do you know it isn't someone's harasser or bully, or someone whose intent may not be the best, or who you do not want notified of when you post, as in the case of harassers and bullies?

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20. SincerelySolveig Sun 16 Aug 2020 03:42PM UTC

    

    Thank you for this. I've heard stories of harassment ramping up on AO3 lately and I hope this will make certain writers' lives a little easier.

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21. I see that keysmashing (Guest) Sun 16 Aug 2020 10:53PM UTC

    herecomethespambots.jpeg

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22. jollyraven Mon 17 Aug 2020 02:17AM UTC

    

    Glad this is an option now. I get really nervous when I upload anything due to my anxiety, this’ll probably help out. Thanks!

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23. laisserais Mon 17 Aug 2020 08:57AM UTC

    

    This is excellent news! I've been waiting years for this feature, thank you!

    In some future update would it be possible to change the wording, though?

    "Sorry, this work doesn't allow comments." feels a little aggressive. It would be awesome to either have it say nothing, and just have no comment box, or allow the author to write their own note.

    I know comments mean a lot to a lot of writers, so it feels like a particularly sensitive thing. Allowing us to either not explain the choice, or to explain it in our own way would feel better.

    It already feels awkward disallowing comments at all. Like it's transgressing community norms. Phrasing it like an apology kind of feels like a splash of cold water in the face of any potential goodwill a reader may have at the end of a fic. And that's probably not most writers' intention?

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24. 1. Seeking_Chaos Mon 17 Aug 2020 11:51AM UTC

       

       A lot of the messages on the site are phrased like that, like “Sorry, this work doesn't allow non-Archive users to comment.“ or “ Sorry! This work is only available to registered users of the Archive.“ It’s just letting people know that a feature isn’t available on that particular work and there s also an alternative offered— leave kudos, log in, etc. I think not saying anything at all may just confuse people, especially newcomers.

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    2. cthchewy Mon 17 Aug 2020 12:11PM UTC

       

       You can explain the choice in an author's note. Some authors already used notes to request things like no comments or no unsolicited crit, though previously they had no way to enforce it.

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25. Raberba girl (Raberba_girl) Mon 17 Aug 2020 08:11PM UTC

    

    Although I don't plan to use it myself, I am glad to see this feature. It's good to have more options when it comes to comment permissions.

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26. aloftmelevar Tue 18 Aug 2020 01:44AM UTC

    

    i'm literally 18 and the younger folks here advocating for censorship are making me feel 38. not really sure how i let myself be raised in an older part of the internet but some of the zoomers in here...sheesh

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27. Dragonheart Of Ireland (RepublicChe) Thu 20 Aug 2020 02:46PM UTC

    

    This is amazing, thank you! I've been wanting this optional feature to be added for awhile now. Thank you again! Side note: I wish the FFN admins would give users this option instead of only allowing users to delete (not block) guest reviews. Since I joined FFN (over time) I've had plenty of... not so nice 'reviews' to say the least.

    On FFN you can only delete guest reviews but aren't allowed to delete signed in reviews for whatever reason. For a length of time I was one of several users literally flooded with signed in (alongside guest) spam reviews on FFN. Since I couldn't delete the signed in spam, I had no choice but to delete and repost several of my stories. Being able to block all comments (until the spamming stopped) would of come in handy at the time.

    Last Edited Thu 20 Aug 2020 05:58PM UTC

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28. ratpilled Sun 30 Aug 2020 07:16PM UTC

    

    why do i even bother with comment sections on these type of posts?

    Last Edited Sun 30 Aug 2020 07:24PM UTC

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