Upcoming limit on tags per work

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2021-08-24 21:12:26 UTC

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In the coming days, we'll be rolling out a code change that limits the total number of fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags that can be added to a work. This limit of 75 tags will apply to both new and existing works, but no tags will be automatically removed from existing works.

Why place a limit on tags?

Having a limit on tags will:

help keep work blurbs to a reasonable length, improving the experience of navigating work listings, and
encourage creators to tag for the most important elements of their works, improving the quality of search results.

Why 75 tags?

We looked at all the works on the Archive and determined that:

the average number of tags per work is 17,
the most common number of tags per work is 11, and
less than 0.5% of works have more than 75 tags.

A limit of 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags per work will provide the vast majority of creators with enough space to describe the content of their works while also keeping work blurbs to a manageable size.

Why don't ratings, categories, and warnings count toward the limit?

Ratings, categories, and warnings already have limits of their own. A work can only have one rating, and the number of categories and warnings a work can have is limited by the number of options provided on the posting form.

What should I do if I notice someone's work has more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?

Nothing! Works that exceed the tag limit do not violate the Terms of Service and should not be reported to the Policy & Abuse team or the Support team.

What happens to previously posted works with more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?

Nothing! The work will keep all of its tags.

However, if the work creator wants to edit the work or add a chapter, they will have to remove some of their fandom, character, relationship, and/or additional tags before they can save their changes. (An error message will tell the creator exactly how many tags must be removed.)

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Iron_Angel Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:12PM UTC

If it's a matter of 'keeping work blurbs to a manageable size', why not set the 75 tag limit to *just* the Additional Tags section? Leave the fandom, character, and 'ship fields alone. I'm not a fan of the Wall o' Tags either, but I understand there are fandoms that need it. Writers can always make tag #75 "see additional tags in chapter headers", but that doesn't help when searching for specific fandom or 'ship.

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1. vanetta Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:23PM UTC
  
  Because some people will tag dozens if not hundreds of ships, fandoms, or characters. You can have an over-sized blurb without Additional Tags being responsible.
  
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2. 1. Iron_Angel Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:38PM UTC
    
    I completely agree. Personally, I would love for people to learn to tag better -- I use the 'additional background characters' tag myself -- but there is a case for larger franchises needing more than a handful of tags for relationships and additional characters. Rare, but it happens. I could compromise further and say limit each field to 75 tags each. But the case presented -- without member input, I might add -- is "help keep work blurbs to a reasonable length, improving the experience of navigating work listings," and "encourage creators to tag for the most important elements of their works, improving the quality of search results". Therefore, it makes more sense to limit the number of Additional Tags only. I completely understand the frustration with the Wall o' Tags, but I err on the side of well-informed consent in the fics we consume.
    
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  2. 1. butterflyslinky Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:44PM UTC
      
      Giving a limit of 75 for each category would mean a maximum of 300 tags, which feels like a lot. I can't think of any story that would use 75 character or pairing tags and have all of them be relevant. (Unless you're writing an orgy, and even then Everyone/Everyone should cover it.)
      
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    2. 1. Iron_Angel Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:55PM UTC
        
        I can't think of any either and just the thought of it boggles my mind, but I also can't say that there's not those kinds of fics out there. My biggest concern is that the important trigger warnings, sensitivity tags, etc. will be the ones cut out for the sake of character tags that are -- as you say -- overall irrelevant. Additional Tags should be independent from the whole count.
        
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      2. butterflyslinky Wed 25 Aug 2021 11:00PM UTC
        
        I don't disagree. I think what's more likely to happen is that people will start putting the excess tags into the summary, which won't help with the blacklist function but will still get them out there. But as I said in an earlier comment, it's likely that this system will be tweaked as we go on and the staff sees how it's working.
        
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        Iron_Angel Wed 25 Aug 2021 11:12PM UTC
        
        Fair enough, and here's to hoping it works out for the best. ⭐
        
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3. whetherwoman Wed 25 Aug 2021 11:02PM UTC
  
  Fandoms, characters, relationships and additional tags all accept anything a tagger writes in them. There's nothing making someone only out characters in character tags. (And in fact people pretty frequently put chatty tags in the character tags.) Functionally, not grouping them together under one limit would mean people would put tags in the wrong sections.
  
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4. 1. Iron_Angel Thu 26 Aug 2021 12:02AM UTC
    
    My apologies, but I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make. Sure, you *could* write whatever you wanted in other fields than where they belong, but it wouldn't get sorted properly and therefore wouldn't show up in the filters. Improper tagging in incorrect fields would make it unsearchable, which seems an illogical practice to me. Most readers know they want a specific thing, so they filter for it.
    I may have missed your point entirely. Mine is simply that the Additional Tags should be an independent count from the overall limit. AO3's ultimate superiority over all other fic sites is the ability to tag as needed and to filter content via those tags. I do not disagree with you that there are people who are overly chatty in the wrong place, but cutting into the section where we get the trigger warnings, etc. is potentially disastrous.
    
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5. undercat Thu 26 Aug 2021 09:02AM UTC
  
  Because the real wall of tag offenses come in the fandoms, characters, and pairings fields, not the chatty flavor tags.
  
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6. 1. Iron_Angel Thu 26 Aug 2021 01:09PM UTC
    
    A fair assessment.
    
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heartbeatstumbles Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:17PM UTC

good! as a person who has been guilty of chatty tags in the past, i was definitely not as witty as i thought i was. hopefully users can find a balance between appropriately tagging and creative expression with their 75 available tags going forward! while an adjustment period will be rough, i think it’s evidenced by this comment section that the majority of readers will appreciate the change.

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Rirren Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:18PM UTC

I'm glad this is happening but sad that it seemed to take persistent trolling for AO3 to take action.

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CrackingLamb Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:23PM UTC

As a supporting member of AO3, and considering this is a decision that will directly affect a portion of writers who publish longfics (myself included), I'm curious as to why this wasn't actually put to a vote? We aren't talking about a simple formatting change, this will potentially affect thousands of fics and their authors. .5% of over 8 million works exceeds 40,000. It's small in a percentage, but that's a significant number when actually looking at them.
I have no objection to limiting additional tags on a single piece of work. But to lump ALL the tags together *collectively* IS going to affect any story that takes place across the breadth of a franchise with numerous characters, relationships, fandom names (since each entry in a franchise tends to have its own title)...and that's before even getting into warnings and pertinent tropes that classically make up the majority of additional tags. Not to mention collection fics spanning numerous disparate fandoms. Regardless of my personal opinion of them and whether or not they would be better served as series rather than single fics, that's the decision of the author creating them. A collection fic shouldn't be forcibly shunted into *having to be* a series if the author doesn't want to. For ANY work on the archive, the only rule that truly applies is whether or not it complies with the TOS. I thought that was the whole point of this website? Created by fans, for fans. Which means our input too.
If given the opportunity to advise on how I would like to see tag limits work, as a writer and a reader, I would have said to make the limit only on additional tags and leave the rest of it alone. But I wasn't asked. None of us were asked what we wanted out of this, or even IF we wanted it. I think that's my biggest problem here. We're being told that this is happening, but this site is supposedly run with us in mind, and tangibly by our donations. We deserved to have a say in how it would be implemented.

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1. copacet Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:51PM UTC
  
  It would be completely ridiculous for AO3 to poll its userbase every time they were thinking of making a change to the website. There's a reason they have a board and committees - to make precisely these kinds of decisions. Donating to a non-profit doesn't mean you get a say in every decision they make. They didn't hold a referendum on what the character limit for summaries should be, and there's no reason to hold one for this.
  So, sure, you can leave your input. That's what this comment section is for....and it seems that a majority of the users commenting support this decision. And the entire reason they implemented this in the first place was in response to user feedback about fics with too many tags making the site inaccessible. But regardless, AO3 isn't a direct democracy, and I certainly wouldn't want to be voting on every possible implementation of a new change. I can't think of any website, or any nonprofit funded by donations, that does that.
  
  Last Edited Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:59PM UTC
  
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2. 1. DifferentDances Wed 25 Aug 2021 11:48PM UTC
    
    >Donating to a non-profit doesn't mean you get a say in every decision they make.
    People seem to have taken on the mistaken belief that a donation to a nonprofit means you are now a shareholder in the organization. That's not how donations work (with the exception of major donors who are contributing hundreds of thousands of dollars or more, broadly speaking. Even then sometimes organizations will turn down money because it comes with strings they're not willing to dance to.).
    Which ignores the reality, anyway, that if it were put up to a user vote those who want more than 75 tags would lose by a landslide. The appreciative comments here and elsewhere heavily outweigh the complaints, when normally the reverse is true: people like to complain, especially when it comes to changes. Thanking and expressing gratitude tends to fall a distant second, with paltry representation because most people who are content don't bother expending the energy to say, "I'm content with this."
    So when the vast majority of comments are "About fucking time" and "Thank God for AO3" and not complaints? Yeah, this is a good move.
    
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  2. caeciliusinhorto Thu 26 Aug 2021 12:17PM UTC
    
    Wikipedia does. The WMF still make decisions about high-level stuff, but the day-to-day running of the various wikipedias is left up to those wiki communities, and at least on en.wikipedia, that means that policy is decided by whoever cares enough to turn up an discuss it. (Though they don't exactly have referenda - they have big discussions and then assess "consensus".) That said, it's not how AO3 works, it has never been how AO3 works, it's a highly atypical system that to the best of my knowledge wikipedia is the only large organisation to use, and it's not without its problems. I certainly don't think AO3 should adopt it as a model, not least because it would lead to constant ~~discussions~~ arguments about how X or Y type of content is Problematic and should be banned and nothing else would ever get done.
    
    Last Edited Thu 26 Aug 2021 12:18PM UTC
    
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3. Elf (Elf_Herself) Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:55PM UTC
  
  AO3's policies and code changes have never been subject to vote.
  I don't want them to be; I want the staff paying attention to the purpose and goals of the archive, and serving the fannish community as best they can, not subject to changes according to whatever's trendy this year. (I don't want the warning labels to change every two years as fandom preferences change.)
  This is was not decided on arbitrarily; all major AO3 decisions are discussed at length among the board and various committees that are affected by them. I'm pretty sure this was discussed extensively with tag wranglers, who have to actually manage the tags and are no doubt considering how this will affect their work.
  The way to get involved in AO3's decision-making is to join a committee when they have an opening.
  
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4. shinykari (meinterrupted) Thu 26 Aug 2021 01:08AM UTC
  
  Just based on the comments to this post, I expect your proposed vote would not go your way. 13 pages and counting of comments, and the vast majority are "oh thank god, this is overdue." The few loud dissenters are very much in the minority here.
  
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5. 1. Terrie Sun 29 Aug 2021 04:28PM UTC
    
    Exactly. If anything, the dissenters are probably over-represented here, because they are more likely to say something than people who are fine with the change, but not invested enough to comment.
    
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6. Pegasus143 Thu 26 Aug 2021 04:17AM UTC
  
  Thank you; these are exactly my thoughts. A simple formatting change to make only the first 75 tags appear in work listings (alongside a stat saying how many tags the work actually has), which allows you to click on the fic and see the full list of tags there, would have solved the issues with site performance and screenreader crashing without unnecessarily inhibiting fans' expression in their work tags. (before anyone asks, yes, I did just send this idea to support & feedback)
  
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7. icypoptail Thu 26 Aug 2021 04:18AM UTC
  
  But...the userbase doesn't vote for code updates to the AO3. That's not how the Terms of Service work, and it never has been a part of the OTW's charter. Why would you even think that you get to have a vote? You can't run an archive this large by a vote of the paying membership.
  You do get 0.0000000019537% of a Hugo award, though.
  
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Ember_Keelty Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:28PM UTC

I appreciate this! Thank you for listening to feedback and implementing a much-requested change that will prevent more bad actors from making the archive unusable again in the future.

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hiyomii Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:30PM UTC

Good. This is probably the single most popular change AO3 has made to the site in the past 5 years. There's no reason for any fic to exceed 75 tags, and if it were up to me, I'd set it lower to 50.
Tags are meant primarily to aid searching. Everything else, such as using them to exclude triggers and squicks, is secondary. When people abuse tags by tagging every insignificant character or trope that occurs, it degrades the usability and searchability of the archive. And an archive is useless if no one can find anything of value because they have to wade through hundreds of pointless tags.

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PoeticArmageddon Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:35PM UTC

Oh thank God. I know everyone is bringing up *that* fic, but I hope this busts all the "tumblr drabble dumps" that clog up tags especially for rare pairs/characters/fandoms.

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1. DragonSoulDreams Thu 26 Aug 2021 08:24AM UTC
  
  My only encounter with "that" fic was people referring to it when I was trying to find a way to filter out those drabble dumps. No fic honestly needs a hundred damned fandom tags. It's just a way to siphon piles of clicks to inflate a hits count, because they know that putting up 600 separate 200-word dribbles wouldn't get any hits on any of them. So instead they lump them all together in an attempt to look better, and somehow it actually works?
  Seriously though, there's one I keep running into that has 172 fandom tags (WTF!?), 366 "chapters", and 163k words. So on average that's 2 chapters and 947 words per fandom, with an average chapter length of 445 words. There isn't even a fic in there anywhere, but the blurb takes up an entire screen, and there's more than a hundred fandoms where it currently shows up on the first page if you sort by Word Count, Update Date, or Hits. Meanwhile it's true position is at the bottom of all of them, because it hasn't updated anything in that fandom in years (if it actually had anything that belongs there in the first place), it has less than a thousand words in that fandom (if that), and less than 500 hits from that fandom.
  
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2. 1. PoeticArmageddon Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:39AM UTC
    
    Exactly! Honestly it's a pathetically transparent attempt at clickbaiting. Doubly so when it's rare fandoms and pairings. The majority don't even lable the chapters and I'm not willing to waste my time over what will probably clock in at under five hundred words and at best be underwhelming if the only way the author thinks they can get hits is to spam the fuck out of everyone.
    Now I have seen some arguments that this unfairly affects long fics and all, but that's just not the case. If you actually focus on your main pairing and characters that play a key role in your fic and then content that appears, you'll be fine. Tags aren't meant to be a play by play for your fic. You have summaries and author's notes at your disposal to add in indepth trigger warnings and kink warnings.
    I do have to admit though I am a bit of an ass, so there has been a lot of humor in this situation looking for the most outspoken individuals against the limit and just finding their most egregiously over tagged fics. There's usually two to three variations of the same character tag such as something tagged Luke Skywalker, Hurt Luek Skywalker, Protective Luke Skywalker, Good Friend Luke Skywalker, Luke Skywalker needs a break, and so on and so forth along with every variation of the same au under the sun such as Time Travel, Time Travel Fix it, time travel au, and then some other stretch that really makes you wonder how they pulled that one out of their ass. Combine that with tagging every character that so much as has their name come up or reference made to them and any ship that tickles the author's fancy at the moment along with every kink or briefly mentioned trigger, it's no wonder they ran out of tags.
    I can already imagine someone is going to jump down my throat saying well all my tags are 100% necessary, and how can you know what it's like to write long fic when your biggest clocks in at just under 5k, but I'll pull out the I have friends with long fic cards and if anything they think this is still too many tags.
    
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  2. 1. DragonSoulDreams Thu 26 Aug 2021 03:40PM UTC
      
      my 300k+ fic has 30-some tags. Main characters once only, side characters not at all, some but not all kinks, and the most important tropes. No one looking for a specific character that might show up in a few scenes is actually looking for my fic, and I'm okay with that. Tags are to help people looking to find my fic or to avoid it, not to fully document the entire thing before cracking the first page.
      
      Last Edited Thu 26 Aug 2021 04:14PM UTC
      
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    2. 1. PoeticArmageddon Thu 26 Aug 2021 04:47PM UTC
        
        Honestly yeah. You'll even still have room for commentary tags at that rate if that's what you really want to add which are also apparently going to be ruined and squash creative freedoms for some reason. You'd think ao3 was adding content restrictions as opposed to optimizing organization and accessibility.
        
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      2. DragonSoulDreams Thu 26 Aug 2021 05:56PM UTC
        
        Feel free to point at me for one of your longfic with reasonable tags examples if you want. I'm sure some people would think I'm missing tags (and they might be right. If someone points out a missing tag and has a good argument for including it, then sure, I'll add it.) but even if I doubled my tags I'd still be under the new limit.
        One of the things I do that cuts down on tags is that I don't tag all the triggers, even though I have scenes that contain things that I know will trigger/squick a lot of people. Instead I use in-page links to skip the trigger/squick, with the warnings in invisitext. So as someone's reading through they'll come across something that looks like
        Warnings:{invisitext warnings here, which show up if highlighted. Can't use invisitext in comments though.}
        skip scene
        and clicking the link skips to after the content that has that warning. If some reader has triggers, I'd prefer to still make the story accessible, and give them the ability to consume whatever portions they can enjoy. Instead of just sticking the warnings in the tags, and driving away someone who might enjoy 99%, as long as they can skip those scenes.
        Obviously I can't accomodate every possible trigger, because there are people out there who are traumatized by things that trigger no one else on the planet. But I can't do that with tags anyway, because I don't even know what that trigger might be.
        
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        PoeticArmageddon Thu 26 Aug 2021 06:14PM UTC
        
        Honestly when you get into dark content specifically it's impossible to tag every possible trigger because they add up fast, and there's also the fact that if it's being tagged it should be something playing a major role in the story. One off things are just ridiculous to expect tags for especially in longer works.
        That being said there are solutions. You have a good one, and then there's also just putting in depth content warnings/kink lists in your author's notes. It also makes it easier on author's because rather than constantly messing with your own tags you just have to add notes at the end of your chapters. That does require readers to actually have to put in a little effort to check further if the story is right for them, though, and what a shame it would be to expect people to have to do some more moderation of their own experiences.
        That being said, most readers seem to be overjoyed for the change as they can scan quickly, and it really seems to be only the author's themselves worried they can't add every tag under the sun to their works to try and generate as much false interest as possible. Not to be that guy but also to definitely be that guy, if you think you can only keep up your hits by egregiously overtagging, your work has some issues with getting readers that more tags won't fix.
        
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Squidster Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:42PM UTC

finally

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Podcath Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:44PM UTC

Thank you, thank you, thank you!
This is much needed change and the actual limit seems like a good compromise.
I'm looking forward to new works avoiding superfluous, self-evident, and redundant tags.

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kamarria Wed 25 Aug 2021 11:03PM UTC

Fully support this change. It’s past time.

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cqbrui Wed 25 Aug 2021 11:13PM UTC

Thank you so much for doing this! It is my hope that this will prevent people from tag spamming and giving me false hope that someone actually wrote about my rare pair.

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skygawker Wed 25 Aug 2021 11:25PM UTC

I greatly appreciate this decision! And as someone who has written a 100k+ fic, I definitely don't think that longfics inherently need dozens and dozens of tags - the longer the fic is, the more important it is to be thoughtful about what character, relationships, and themes/tropes are significant to the story, and anything that can't fit in 75+ tags is probably better off in the summary or author's notes.
Anyway, thank you for listening to user feedback and taking action on this issue.

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Marks Thu 26 Aug 2021 12:17AM UTC

thank you! i was already doing what i could to mitigate seeing walls of tags, but i think this is a very positive change for readers overall.

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changedthename Thu 26 Aug 2021 12:24AM UTC

This is great, thank you!

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puff22_2001 Thu 26 Aug 2021 12:34AM UTC

Will there be a running tally of tags as we add them somewhere or will we need to keep track ourselves?

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1. butterflyslinky Thu 26 Aug 2021 12:40AM UTC
  
  From what the announcement says, you'll probably just get an error message if you try to put in too many.
  
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2. 1. puff22_2001 Thu 26 Aug 2021 04:04AM UTC
    
    Awesome! Thank you!
    
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adi_rotynd Thu 26 Aug 2021 12:37AM UTC

Oh this is excellent news! Those tag walls on huge crossovers can really gum up my poor phone haha

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FatallyFatCat Thu 26 Aug 2021 12:43AM UTC

Finally!

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BrideofLister Thu 26 Aug 2021 12:53AM UTC

Thank you for this change! My browser struggled with fics with a lot of tags and I'm glad that I can browse easily again.

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BabyBinch Thu 26 Aug 2021 01:03AM UTC

Thank goodness! This update makes me very happy because there are a lot of *very* large collection works that I always felt should be broken up into multiple works instead of spamming specific tags just because one chapter drabble fits that tag.
Very excited for this to be in place!

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universedog123 Thu 26 Aug 2021 01:13AM UTC

thank goodness, because i hate scrolling through a search and getting slammed with popular collection fics with endless tags. hopefully those fauthors will be encouraged to index in series, instead of clogging up search

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Iron_Angel Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:12PM UTC

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vanetta Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:23PM UTC

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