Upcoming limit on tags per work

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2021-08-24 21:12:26 UTC

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In the coming days, we'll be rolling out a code change that limits the total number of fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags that can be added to a work. This limit of 75 tags will apply to both new and existing works, but no tags will be automatically removed from existing works.

Why place a limit on tags?

Having a limit on tags will:

help keep work blurbs to a reasonable length, improving the experience of navigating work listings, and
encourage creators to tag for the most important elements of their works, improving the quality of search results.

Why 75 tags?

We looked at all the works on the Archive and determined that:

the average number of tags per work is 17,
the most common number of tags per work is 11, and
less than 0.5% of works have more than 75 tags.

A limit of 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags per work will provide the vast majority of creators with enough space to describe the content of their works while also keeping work blurbs to a manageable size.

Why don't ratings, categories, and warnings count toward the limit?

Ratings, categories, and warnings already have limits of their own. A work can only have one rating, and the number of categories and warnings a work can have is limited by the number of options provided on the posting form.

What should I do if I notice someone's work has more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?

Nothing! Works that exceed the tag limit do not violate the Terms of Service and should not be reported to the Policy & Abuse team or the Support team.

What happens to previously posted works with more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?

Nothing! The work will keep all of its tags.

However, if the work creator wants to edit the work or add a chapter, they will have to remove some of their fandom, character, relationship, and/or additional tags before they can save their changes. (An error message will tell the creator exactly how many tags must be removed.)

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BreadPuddingBowl Thu 26 Aug 2021 05:29PM UTC

Thank you for striking the balance between having a generous amount of tags allowed, and not allowing too many.

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BitterOldFandomQueen Thu 26 Aug 2021 05:45PM UTC

Hallefuckinglulah. Tagging is out of control on this site.

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zeroantizero Thu 26 Aug 2021 07:00PM UTC

I'm generally supportive of this move. If I see a wall of tags on a fic, I just move on and don't bother with it.
That being said, a tag limit of 75 just seems awkward. Make it an even 50 or 100.

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1. DragonSoulDreams Thu 26 Aug 2021 07:13PM UTC
  
  Given that they specifically note only half a percent of existing fics are over the limit, I suspect they picked 75% because that's where the 0.5% line was. At least, that's how I'd do it, pick the percentage of fics affected by the limit, and then work backwards to find the limit.
  
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a_bombyx_mori Thu 26 Aug 2021 08:14PM UTC

There should've been a limit earlier,,, *squints*

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nomisupernova Thu 26 Aug 2021 08:52PM UTC

This is the best thing, thank you.

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Chewing Thu 26 Aug 2021 09:11PM UTC

Thank you thank you thank you so much.
I still have horrible memories of THAT atrocity. Never again, please.

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ProfessionalShitposter Thu 26 Aug 2021 09:15PM UTC

what if we wrote the whole bee movie script in the comment section 😳😳
haha just kidding... unless?? 😳🐝😳

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Fear_Itself Thu 26 Aug 2021 09:22PM UTC

I wouldn't mind this if each category could have a maximum tag amounts (so like characters have max 75, relationships have max 75, etc) but having it collectively be 75 would be miserable since I add lots of variations of common tags like angst, fluff, and hurt/comfort to maximize visibility and I do fics with lots of characters. Long fics with lots of the main cast will suffer from this update if I'm interpreting it correctly :|

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1. Lielac Thu 26 Aug 2021 09:38PM UTC
  
  You don't need to add variations of common tags to increase visibility, because AO3 has human tag wranglers who connect tags talking about the same concept (say, "angst") to one tag about that concept. For example, here's the tag page for "Angst". There's a lot of tags that mean the same thing, but the "canonical" tag is "Angst".
  
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2. itsjustpoopeh Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:40AM UTC
  
  ok but you need to understand that you doing that? adding a bunch of variations of the exact same tag to spam the search feed? is EXACTLY why we need limits. you don't ever need 75 fandom tags, and 75 character tags, 75 relationship tags, in addition to 75 additional tags.
  
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3. MonkeysInPants Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:16AM UTC
  
  "add lots of variations of common tags like angst, fluff, and hurt/comfort to maximize visibility"
  PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS. Ao3 is not Instagram or even Tumblr and you do not need to do SEO for 'maximum visibility'. Adding redundant variations of tags does not increase your visibility because those tags already show up in each others' searches. If you tag your fic 'anorexia' then it will already show up if someone filters for 'anorexia' OR 'eating disorder'. If you tag 'fluff and angst', the fic will already show up if someone searches 'angst' OR 'fluff' (unless they have one of those filtered out). The only thing redundant tags do bloat your tag count and make it harder for people to read through them all to pick out things they are/aren't interested in, and many readers (as evidenced in this comment section) will automatically scroll past stories with excessive tags because it's difficult for them to parse walls of text. At best, your tag variants are neutral, because the Ao3 search system already treats them as the same thing, and at worse your tagging practices are actively losing you readers.
  On a specific note: 'hurt/comfort' and 'hurt no comfort' are mutually exclusive concepts. Either a story has comfort or it has no comfort, it can't have both. That's like a snack wrapper that says both 'Nut free!' and 'May contain peanuts'.
  
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4. the_gabih Fri 27 Aug 2021 02:01PM UTC
  
  Just a quick heads up- variations on tags are all linked to the main tag, so you don't need the extras! e.g. 'Poisoning' and 'Poison' are both synned to 'Poison', 'Couch Cuddles' and 'Sleepy Cuddles' to 'Cuddling and Snuggling' etc. If anything, using the canonical tag helps best with visibility, because newly-created variants sometimes don't get picked up for a while (especially in big fandoms like MCYT, which gets thousands of new tags every day), so they can't be filtered for.
  
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King_Traegodia Thu 26 Aug 2021 09:22PM UTC

I hope you're ready to lose SO many writers over this, This... WAS STUPID! -_- people who are hundreds of chapters in can't even update or finish their work now without getting rid of their tags, fix this policy, it's not a good one, no matter what the comments say

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1. ProfessionalShitposter Thu 26 Aug 2021 09:23PM UTC
  
  people who post all their unconnected one-shots with no end in sight deserve this
  
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2. 1. King_Traegodia Thu 26 Aug 2021 09:27PM UTC
    
    Tell it to Authors who AREN'T one-shotting, like me and ANYONE else that puts work into their stories, not exactly fair is it??
    
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  2. 1. TheMadWires Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:18PM UTC
      
      So put a little work into paring down your tags, too. You don't need four different tags for 'drug use' or 'comedy' on a single fic, any one of them will get it to show up in a search or filter for that topic. Overtagging causes people who require screen readers and braille users to be unable to use the site. So get accessible, or seriously, have fun finding another site that lets you have this many tags on a fic and is still searchable.
      
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3. grommile Thu 26 Aug 2021 09:41PM UTC
  
  Do the lurkers agree with you in email?
  
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4. Elf (Elf_Herself) Thu 26 Aug 2021 10:04PM UTC
  
  Er. Where else are they going to go?
  There's no other fiction-posting site that allows unlimited tags.
  I'm not mocking, just pointing out: AO3 has had 13+ years of "no limits on site-wide searchable tags," a feature no other archive site has. That feature stopped working as intended, and was causing problems for a lot of site users, so it's being changed.
  It's going to be a hardship for some authors. It's going to be a blessing for a lot more readers - looking at the comments here, it looks like about 100 to 1 in favor of the change.
  And yeah, "more people like it" doesn't automatically mean it's a good feature, which is why users don't get to vote on features & policy changes. But this is an accessibility and coding feature, weighed against authorial creativity - and the decision was, "authors who love lots of tags are going to have to lose a bit of creative expression rights to make the archive more usable for everyone else." They'll still have author's notes & summaries to get across any warnings or other info they want to convey to readers; they just won't have site-wide searchability for those things.
  
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5. 1. butterflyslinky Thu 26 Aug 2021 10:28PM UTC
    
    I think you can have more on DreamWidth, so I suppose people who really feel they need more tags could go there...makes it harder for people to find your stories, though.
    
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  2. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:13PM UTC
      
      Dreamwidth has a limit of tags per journal. Free accounts can have up to 1000 total tags; paid get 1500, and premium/seed get 2000. (Scans_daily ran into the limit and regularly has to adjust what tags they allow on posts.)
      
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    2. 1. butterflyslinky Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:14PM UTC
        
        Is there a limit per post? I haven't used it in years and never came close to the tag max over there.
        
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      2. Elf (Elf_Herself) Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:31AM UTC
        
        I don't think there's a limit per post. And most people never come anywhere near the tag limits; I've only seen large communities hit the limits.
        It'd probably work fine for a single person's fanfic, but has the problem that it's not very different from "just put the tags in the summary/author's note." There's no easy site-wide DW search. (There's a search, but it's for paid accounts, and it's not specifically tag-based. And there's no wrangling, of course.)
        I have no idea if I've personally used more than 2000 tags here at AO3. Probably not? I haven't written a whole lot. But there's a lot of metadata here that would need to be included in tags if someone switched to a blog site: Ratings, Warnings, fic type (M/M, Gen, M/F, etc.), word count (probably several word count range tags), and so on.
        
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        butterflyslinky Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:41AM UTC
        
        Oh, I'm not saying that DW is anywhere near as good as AO3 or that people should move their overtagged works there. I was just trying to think of the site with the most liberal tag limit.
        
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        Elf (Elf_Herself) Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:32AM UTC
        
        I suppose people could have their own Wordpress blogs and tag all they want. But I think all the places that have platform-wide/searchable tags, have fairly low limits on them.
        
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  3. DragonSoulDreams Thu 26 Aug 2021 10:32PM UTC
    
    they didn't have site-wide searchability for those things anyway, because no one in their right mind is going to search for "burning houses are dangerous" as a tag. (to use a particularly silly tag example I've seen recently.) Nor are they going to filter it out.
    Most of the complainers not only have a pile of redundant tags, but they have basically no summary. No, I'm not saying that treated and untreated PTSD are the same, as someone's shifted goalposts a couple pages ago would indicate. I'm saying that tagging the same character seven times is a stupid use of tagging space. "Character A has such a bad day" "But Character A has good friends." Those aren't tags, those are the summary. Put it in the correct box.
    
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  4. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:40AM UTC
      
      While no-fandom tags are currently not being wrangled, when they start again, tags like "Burning houses are dangerous" could become canonical if they get used by several people. And "Peter Parker lives in Avengers Tower" did become canonical - because people used it first.
      AO3's tag wrangling system encourages people to use new tags, to use creative phrasings, and have fun with different fandom communities' ways of expressing themselves. That's not going to end; OTW staff is not trying to make tags all serious.
      There are 216 canonical "X is a good friend" tags. That's fine. Plenty of authors and readers have agreed that that's info they want about a fic. You can search for fics in which the main villain is actually a good friend, and some people love that.
      The new limit means some info may have to move to the summary or author's notes. There's no demand that the "chatty tags" be the ones that get moved; authors could keep those, and put the list of single-word likely-trigger warnings in a separate box. This is not a "purge the random tumblr-esque tags" change; it's just "reduce the number of tags on future/updated works.... and staff is not telling anyone how to do that."
      
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    2. 1. butterflyslinky Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:45AM UTC
        
        Though on that note, I wish they would remove tags with 0 uses from the overall tag list. It's not like people can't add it back if they want it, but right now it makes trying to look through the full tag list impossible
        
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      2. Elf (Elf_Herself) Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:54PM UTC
        
        Tags that aren't synned and aren't canonical will vanish eventually. (Something between a few hours and a couple of days, depending on how often the sweeper runs.)
        If you see a canonical tag with 0 uses in a search, it probably just means "all the uses of this tag don't use the canon spelling/phrasing." (Like if the character's official name is Yukinari Ohkido but everyone tags with "Professor Oak.") Clicking on the tag generally shows it as not actually empty.
        0-use tags that are synned stick around; wranglers are too busy to hunt them down, but they do sometimes get removed when they get noticed.
        
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    3. undercat Fri 27 Aug 2021 02:38AM UTC
      
      I think there might be a fan culture/background difference here? I grew up, so to speak, on AO3 and I really miss freeforms on sites that don’t have them. I consider tags like “X has a bad day” to be part of the broader summary of what the fic is about, yet the information conveyed in those tags wouldn’t fit well into the couple sentence written summary. Some of those tags also serve as a warning (“C’s A+ parenting” comes to mind). Freeforms are useful to me as a reader (and writer) and they tell me things I want to know about a fic that I wouldn’t learn from the summary. I am better able to determine what I want and don’t want to read with chatty flavor tags.
      (I am, for the record, very much in favor of this change. I just think that chatty tags get a bad rap.)
      
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    4. 1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:04AM UTC
        
        So, I think the chatty tags are silly and not very useful, but as long as they don't go overboard (i.e. enough of them they wouldn't actually fit in the summary) I don't really have a problem with them. Maybe "X is a good friend" and "C's A+ parenting" actually are useful in some fandoms. I don't really see it myself, but I'll acknowledge the point. I just think they're an easy place to trim if a fic is up against the new limit, probably in second place for trimming actually, after the redundant tags. If you have a half-dozen tags with the same parent tag, you really only need one to show up in any searches for any of them (or to not show up in searches excluding any of them).
        I think you're right about the background difference. To me tags exist to organize, while the summary and notes exist to describe. If I search for "thing" in the tags, I'm looking for fics about "thing". I'm not looking for fics that obliquely mention that "thing" exists in passing. To use a chatty tag as an example, if I search for "Izuku is a goofball" I'm probably looking for a comedy where he's the main character. I'm not looking for a slasher fic focused on Toga where Izuku appears in one scene, does something goofy, and then never shows up again. Conversely, if I search for "Himiko Toga is crazy", I'm probably not interested in a fic where she's mentioned as having been captured off screen, and then spends the entire fic in prison without anyone visiting her or hearing another word about her. (Examples entirely fabricated, any resemblance to actual fics is coincidental, but they illustrate my point.)
        
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      2. undercat Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:16AM UTC
        
        Heh, "A+ parenting" or "X has a bad day" are useful in that they make me more inclined to avoid a work: chatty tags often tell me something about the author and their approach to writing and their interpretation of canon and the fic itself. Two different fics that are retelling a canon event could have the exact same summary yet have two opposite and opposing views about the event and characters, and that's something that I feel comes across much better in the tags. I read and post on a fandom-specific archive as well as ao3, and I do honestly think that I learn more about a fic from the summary and tags on ao3 than I do from the summary on the archive without freeforms and that my reading experience is better as a result.
        Oh, that's interesting - I would never even consider searching using freeform tags (unless I'm searching for a particular kink, in which case it's the kink I care about more than the fandom or characters). I look for new things by browsing through a fandom or character tag, and if I were reading in a new-to-me fandom, I'd narrow it down by pairing or whatever, and either browse through the entire list if it's short or find a fic I liked and then look at the author's bookmarks.
        As for trimming if a fic is approaching, at, or past the new 75 tag limit, I'd honestly rather the author look at the fandom, character, and pairing list? In my (admittedly not universal) experience, with heavily tagged fic it's not just the freeforms that should be cut. Culling the freeform duplicates is easy and should be done, but the fic that tags a related fandom because of a brief reference or tags a character that gets two lines is more annoying to me on a tagging front.
        
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6. black_tea Thu 26 Aug 2021 10:16PM UTC
  
  No they aren't. This fix has been requested for awhile now, and the comments you want to ignore because you disagree, is full of people who are thrilled about this, because improper tagging has been clotting up the archive and causing accessibility issues. Also, the vast majority of writers aren't going to be affected by this, because most don't need that many tags. Many long fic writers don't use that many tags. People who do use that many tags usually have lots of redundant tags they don't need for searchability, and/or they're tagging every minor character which tends to drive readers nuts.
  
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7. Osidiano Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:01AM UTC
  
  Your fic, The Red Dragon's Misadventure, has one (1) chapter 78 words long and over 130 tags, and that one chapter isn't even fic, it's a note saying you deleted the chapter because you didn't like it and would repost later. YOU are ABSOLUTELY part of the reason why we need this to be a policy.
  
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8. 1. blitzen Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:51PM UTC
    
    Wow, I thought you were exaggerating at first lol. Every one of those tags is vital though /s
    
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9. saterelly Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:48AM UTC
  
  You mean they'll lose the 0.5% who will be affected? Eh, I think the other 99.5% who won't, and all the readers going 'thank god!!!' will be enough to compensate.
  
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10. 1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:09AM UTC
    
    Probably not even that many. I'd be very surprised if every affected author left, or even the majority of them. But yes, I don't think AO3 will suffer from the departure of someone with a higher tag count than word count.
    
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mefistofeleswassupidk Thu 26 Aug 2021 10:14PM UTC

This is the best change on AO3 since the exclude filters. Thank you guys <3

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1. Melethril Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:13PM UTC
  
  Oh, the exclude filters are BRILLIANT!
  Sorry, thought to pitch in here. Totally useless comment on my end, but well... Have a great day :-)
  
  Last Edited Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:13PM UTC
  
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Swoledogge Thu 26 Aug 2021 10:18PM UTC

Pogggg

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luxurias Thu 26 Aug 2021 10:36PM UTC

Before I have anyone jumping down my throat because of a lengthy comment, I want to say that I think 75 tags is a fair number for a limit. I'm not arguing against that.
However, for the people who keep saying "it should be 20 tags max!" and other such lower numbers, please stop. I get that it's what's closest to the mean, median, and mode numbers of tags. But, AO3 chose 75 for a reason. There must be a significant number of fics that use 21-75 tags to make cutting it lower than 75 not a viable/favorable option. I don't know how to check that and they did not provide those numbers for us. This 75 tag limit was the one that they concluded would work for the majority.
As a dark and kinky fic writer who loves poly ships and partial ensemble casts of characters, I do frequently get above 20 tags, but I just as/even more frequently stay under (though most of those you won't find by going to my profile since they're in the anonymous collection.) I even have a few that get as high as 50-60 tags. Could I prune some of those tags? Sure. Am I going to? For redundancies, absolutely and eventually, but not beyond that and my own personal choices. I try to tag as accurately as possible for major/important things while keeping in mind that I'm trying to appeal to readers and should keep to a conservative number of tags. Too many tags and I'll scare off anyone who makes assumptions about the quality of the story based on the number of tags alone. Too few and I won't reach the audience I am aiming for, and I'll get angry comments about "why didn't you tag for this common trigger?" It's a game of balance and I think 75 tags gives the appropriate wiggle room for finding that balance for the most people.
I do absolutely understand the plight of the writers who write longer fics than I do, that are feeling stifled by this limit. Y'all tag in good faith and I'm sorry you're being so negatively impacted by this. It sucks. It feels constrictive. I get it. I would love to live in a world where people didn't abuse the tagging system with a truly unnecessary number of tags and a limit wasn't needed. I'm sure all the unsolicited criticism and tagging suggestions y'all keep getting just for making your voice heard probably isn't helping deal with this change. I'm sorry you're having to deal with that on top of everything. Hang in there. ♥

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1. CodenameCarrot Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:07PM UTC
  
  As a reader, I have to say a large number of kink tags has never bothered me because they’re usually short and informative (even when non-canonical). “BDSM” “water sports” “public sex” “voyeurism” “gang bang” “handyman porn” and so forth. Helpful for searching/excluding fic and then a quick scan to see if you’re into it.
  But when you get “FirstName LastName wants to do kinkysex but isn’t sure he’ll be into it” followed by “FirstName LastName did kinkysex and was super into it” I tend to wonder what the author was thinking. Why the need to go beyond character name, “kinky sex,” and put the rest in the summary.
  
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2. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:21PM UTC
    
    I like a lot of the chatty tags that are never going to be searchable. And most of the authors who use them, use them instead of a laundry list of specific acts; that works out well.
    You get "Protagonist is an awkward doofus who doesn't know how to sex" instead of "awkward sex," "embarrassment," "shy Protagonist," "ignorance about sex," and so on. That tells me what I need to know about the story and lets me know if I want to read it.
    'S fine. I like creative ways of using tags. And the people doing those, are rarely the ones who think a work needs a new tag for every new thousand words.
    
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  2. 1. CodenameCarrot Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:32AM UTC
      
      Oh, agreed. And a few chatty tags can set a mood for the story, which is great. I guess I was aiming towards more hard kinks - like maybe awkward sex is NOT your thing, but I can see people being more upset about being unable to exclude/find something like “knife play” or “breath play”
      I personally can’t stand age play (sexual or non sexual) - so it drives me up the wall when people tag for “Little!Character” but forget to include a simple tag I can sort or exclude on. Limiting the number of tags isn’t going to fix this, but it might make someone think if they can use a more general tag.
      I guess I’ve always used tags on the premise of “if someone was looking for a fic about XYZ, would they be happy so see this in the results” with “if someone were surprised by the inclusion of ABC would they be upset/triggered/disgusted/leave nasty comments?” So my explicit works seem to have more tags (and canonical ones at that) to try to help my readers.
      I’m not immune to the editorial tag, though. One of my works has 16 tags, including fandom, and the 2nd and 3rd tag are “Meta” and “So Very Meta” which is accurate, if not useful for searching. XD
      
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    2. amorenbalde Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:35PM UTC
      
      Ok but if i'm searching for a fic with awkward sex, it would help me if that was a tag. "Protagonist is an awkward doofus who doesn't know how to sex" is a fine fic summary, imo, not a tag.
      
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3. CarolScarlette Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:05AM UTC
  
  I'm sure all the unsolicited criticism and tagging suggestions y'all keep getting just for making your voice heard probably isn't helping deal with this change. I'm sorry you're having to deal with that on top of everything. Hang in there. ♥
  I'm a reader and nothing about this change will affect me, but I've been feeling bad for the longfic / darkfic writers who have expressed their concerns here in this comment thread. This is the only kind comment directed at them that I've seen so far, and you really seem to be the only one who understands the logistics of tagging appropriately. You are 100% right that it's a much more complicated balancing act, and the dismissive and mean spirited attitudes in the comments here was disheartening and frustrating. It reminded me of purity culture.
  
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4. 1. luxurias Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:42AM UTC
    
    I've felt really bad for them as well. There's been a lot of people being unnecessarily rude in the comments today and these writers are getting the brunt of it. Tagging is hard, especially for WIPs! There's liable to be a lot of changes and figuring out when a tag might need to be cut is not always easy or present in your mind.
    
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  2. chicago_ruth Sat 28 Aug 2021 01:25AM UTC
    
    Hey, I'm a prolific darkfic author, and even my darkest work (under a different account) doesn't get close to 75 tags.
    One of the reasons I am not just okay with, but also welcome, the tag limit is because one of my favorite dark kinks is tagged a lot... in works that have nothing to do with it or only mention it in passing. When tagging, I consider whether somebody looking for that specific tag would be disappointed by my fic. I refuse to contribute to the problem of over saturated, irrelevant search results.
    
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  3. 1. Terrie Sun 29 Aug 2021 05:36PM UTC
      
      This. I look at my summary and tags holistically and ask "Does this give a reader a good idea of what they're going to find when they open the fic and the information to decide if they want to?" Sometimes there are specific niche things you need to mention, and that's why authros' notes exist.
      
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5. KeroZombie Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:44AM UTC
  
  I just wanted to say thanks for your comment. I joined this discussion early on and was so surprised by the intensity of people's feeling on it that I actually deleted my comments out of anxiety. I have mixed feelings about the change but it does make sense the more I think about it. I've never hit 75 myself but I realised, reading through all of this stuff, that even though I read the FAQ I had no real idea how nesting works. There are a lot of maliciously over-tagged stories, there's no denying that, but I wonder how many people are like me, and are just over-tagging to be on the safe side, having no idea that they've got a ton of redundant tags. I realise that it's been a long-standing frustration for the majority of people, but I wish the issue didn't result in such enmity towards people in this comment section who, more likely than not, have been over-tagging with god intentions.
  
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6. 1. luxurias Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:21PM UTC
    
    that even though I read the FAQ I had no real idea how nesting works.
    Same here.
    but I wonder how many people are like me, and are just over-tagging to be on the safe side, having no idea that they've got a ton of redundant tags.
    I have plans to go through and clear out redundant tags in my own works in the near future. None of them come close to 75 tags though, so I'm not in a huge rush, but I do want to clean them up.
    but I wish the issue didn't result in such enmity towards people in this comment section
    Yeah, there's been a lot of bad attitudes floating around. It's really disheartening.
    
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TheMadWires Thu 26 Aug 2021 10:40PM UTC

I for one am delighted. Not only will this make browsing easier on me as a reader, it will help prevent me from getting even worse at tagging than I already am as a writer.

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Account Deleted Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:02PM UTC

May the lord bless and keep you, admins

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tabaqui Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:06PM UTC

Excellent change, I applaud it. Thank you!

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Turix Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:09PM UTC

some fandoms have different cultures where more tags are normal because some fics are so much longer. they should have a tag amount filter instead

Last Edited Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:14PM UTC

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1. butterflyslinky Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:18PM UTC
  
  That doesn't help with the issues with tag-searching. If I'm searching for fics about a supporting character from a show, limiting the number of tags per fic on my search page doesn't necessarily help weed-out the fics where the character I want to read about only has a single line of dialogue and the rest of the fic is about something else. Making writers think more carefully about their tags does help.
  
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BuffShipper Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:17PM UTC

I really, really hate the new limit. I have quite a few fics with a lot of characters and a lot of necessary tags. I feel like the people who are responsible with their tags are being punished for the ones that have conversations with the tags. I've made the changes, but damn I hated doing it.

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1. Osidiano Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:53AM UTC
  
  You hated doing it, but do you like knowing that you're contributing to increased accessibility and have made it easier for fellow fans searching for fic? Or that you've helped make the site run more smoothly? Do maybe those benefits outweigh the annoyance of paring down tags, even if you had to delete "necessary" ones to meet the limit?
  
  Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:53AM UTC
  
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2. 1. luxurias Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:37AM UTC
    
    There's no need to leave such a condescending comment.
    
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  2. 1. Osidiano Fri 27 Aug 2021 02:09AM UTC
      
      The tone wasn't meant to be condescending. It was a genuine question, based on the information in the post about how huge tags were affecting the backend of things and other comments from readers about how limiting tag walls would improve their site experience.
      
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    2. 1. luxurias Fri 27 Aug 2021 02:14AM UTC
        
        It may not have been your intent, but it certainly came across that way. Maybe it's because of my own past experiences with that sort of questioning, but I don't doubt that others may have also taken it that way.
        
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      2. Osidiano Fri 27 Aug 2021 02:38AM UTC
        
        I can see that. But likewise, I think it's probably kind of grating to have to hear about how people hate a compromise like this when it is a response to something that is actually keeping other people from being able to use the site effectively (browser crashes, unable to download the work to read offline, inaccessibility for screen readers, etc).
        
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        luxurias Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:05AM UTC
        
        People are allowed to have dissenting opinions on the change, or even mixed feelings on the change and are allowed to express them directly to the post. A lot of AO3 news posts are filled with more complaints than praises. This person had mixed feelings on it - they were willing to make the changes to keep their fics in an updatable state, they simply weren't happy about it. And that's ok. They're allowed to be unhappy and to express that. I don't find that to be grating at all.
        
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        Osidiano Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:49PM UTC
        
        This isn't about a dissenting opinion. I was asking if the benefits of doing it outweighed the annoyance and inconvenience of doing it, as it wasn't initially clear that was the case; BuffShipper has since clarified. I did not say that they weren't allowed an opinion, or that they weren't allowed to hate the policy. Of course they have every right to hate the policy.
        You say that you didn't have a problem with BuffShipper's original comment. Okay, cool. Clearly, I must have, or I would have kept scrolling, right? So, instead of immediately jumping to "Osidiano must be condescending to this person, because of my own personal past history with questions that sound like this," maybe consider that accessibility is in fact always inconvenient? And complaining about a compromise that clearly benefits disabled readers but only inconveniences a small percentage of the rest of the population, without mentioning those benefits and positive outcomes, maybe sounds kind of like you're prioritizing your own convenience over disabled readers, and that reading that over and over and over again in these comments could *maybe* come across as grating or annoying, and that someone might want to express their unhappiness with that? Especially as people have brought up time and again that the majority of writers do not actually have more than 75 tags that are necessary; they have tags they want to use, yes, but not all of them are needed to show up in the appropriate searches for that fic, or give a potential reader other information that might be better suited for the summary or an author's note.
        I don't have a problem with BuffShipper, or you. I have a problem with the idea that inconveniencing ourselves to better the site utility for others is a punishment.
        
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        luxurias Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:53PM UTC
        
        I'm disabled too. Thanks for making assumptions about my horse in this race. I may not need screen readers, but I do have to use other adjustments and a custom skin to make this site legible for myself.
        ETA: I want to add that I've said elsewhere in this thread that I am happy with the new limit. I think it's a solid compromise. Me not having an issue with BuffShipper's comment doesn't mean I agree with BuffShipper's comment.
        
        Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:01PM UTC
        
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        Osidiano Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:30PM UTC
        
        Oh okay so your issue was entirely with your perception of my tone and that's why you're still replying to me even though you don't have anything more to say. Cool. Got it. Thanks for that then.
        
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  3. BuffShipper Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:55AM UTC
    
    I totally get it, we all got to make sacrifices for the greater good of the site.
    If I may explain my reasoning though: I'm working on a Star Wars WIP that is 150000+ words, with a lot of characters and a lot of relationships. Then the additional tags I'm using would be relevant keywords and warnings that would make my fic more likely to be found in a tag search.
    But it is what it is. The positives for others do outweigh the negatives for me. I still don't like it though.
    
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JackieSBlake7 Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:24PM UTC

There are those people who use tags reasonably but who have particular stories/groups of stories which exceed the 75 tags limit - where some form of division would be feasible ('Story X - Chapters 1-20', 'Story X - Chapters 21-40' or '150 shorts - X fandom stories, Y fandom stories', 'Z fandom stories - category a, category b' etc)
With some fandoms there are discussion groups 'wherever' (wikis, and 'the usual places') - so some conventions might be agreed in such places.
Most people won't mind the occasional quirky or ingenious etc tag.
It is the [word of choice] writers who abuse the system who are the problem, and cause issues for all the reasonable people who have reasons for significant numbers of tags (or other issues).

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Zahri Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:25AM UTC

Thank you, this is an excellent quality of life improvement.
The absolute best bit in my opinion as a small fandom person is that any update forces the reduction of tags to 75: it’ll absolutely help with finding fics.

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GreenQuilll Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:45AM UTC

Just a quick question for all of you who tag your fanfictions with both a metatag (e.g. "Smut") and a nested, specific tag (e.g. "Eventual Smut"): Why don't you tag your story *only* with the specific tag? Some have already explained that they need the more specific tag because the general tag is too imprecise or has a somewhat different meaning. But I would be very interested to know why the metatag is kept.
I'm asking because after I realised how the nested tags work in search, I decided to delete my metatag. I originally only added it because I believed the specific tag was too specific and unknown and I simply wanted to attract more readers via search. Knowing that stories with nested specific tags will automatically show up anyway when someone searches the metatag, the metatag was just a piece of redundant text for me that took the focus away from the specific tag (which described my story much better).
I'm not going to lie: I suspect there are a great many writers on AO3 who make the same error in thinking as I did. But I'd still be interested to know if there are other reasons to keep more general metatags.

Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:55AM UTC

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1. thewickling (Diviana) Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:57AM UTC
  
  A situation I use it for is tags like Asexual Name, where the specific character doesn't have a canonical tag for being asexual yet double tagging let's you be filterable but also let's me contribute to a character specific tag if it ever gets enough uses to be become a canonical tag.
  
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2. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:03AM UTC
    
    That makes sense. Once there's a canonical "Asexual Name," you don't need an "Asexuality" or "Asexual character(s)" tag, but until then, you need both. And it's not like you get notified "hey, one of your tags is now canonical! You can remove its parent tags!"
    
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  2. 1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:10AM UTC
      
      Now that would be a great feature.
      
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  3. GreenQuilll Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:54AM UTC
    
    I agree with Elfwreck. At the time, the tags are not yet nested sub- and metatags, but they can be added very quickly without being noticed. And a reader does not see at first glance that "Asexual Character(s)" and "Asexual X" are not nested. I didn't even think of this case because I rarely have to deal with it myself. Thank you for the answer!
    
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3. Osidiano Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:07AM UTC
  
  I include some redundant tags because I'm not using all my tags for search functions. For example, I have both a "Past Torture" and an "Accidental Torture" tag on one of my works. The past torture the MC has gone through is a constant reoccurring reference thanks to flashbacks, and the accidental torture is an on-page event that happens in the present; I think it's important to differentiate because, given the info in the summary, the reader can correctly make the logical jump that the Canonical Good Guys are the ones who accidentally torture the MC, and that may be more upsetting to read than having the Canonical Bad Guys do it. Likewise, the same fic has a "Implied/Referenced Rape" tag for a past event (which I may have to drop because I think I'm saving that flashback for the sequel) and the Archival Rape tag for an on-page rape in the present. There is only one relationship tag. You can infer who rapes the MC, which is, again, more upsetting than having a villain do it.
  
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4. 1. GreenQuilll Fri 27 Aug 2021 11:53AM UTC
    
    Thank you for your explanation. It is understandable that you use the tags the way you do. However, it seems to me that your tags are different from those to whom the question was directed. "Past Torture" and "Accidental Torture" are not nested with each other, nor are they synced. This means that even if you were to set your tags for the search function, neither of the two tags would be redundant. You could not simply remove one of them and still get the same search results. And that's actually what I'm interested in: Why authors put a general metatag when they already have a specific subtag that also describes their content better and it wouldn't change anything in the search results to just omit the metatag. The archive warning for Rape and Non!Con also seems like a different thing again from the additional tags. (My mistake, I should have mentioned). So your case is a different one. Nevertheless, many thanks for your answer!
    
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  2. 1. Osidiano Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:32PM UTC
      
      Ah, okay. You're right; I misunderstood. I do also keep the parent fandom tag and the nested sub fandom tag when I post Marvel fic. So I'll tag both "Marvel Cinematic Universe," the setting with some minor references to other films, and "Captain America (Movies)," the main focus and where readers may actually need to have seen the movies for the most relevant used canon. Or conversely, if I'm mashing up Marvel canons, I'll use "Marvel Cinematic Universe," "Captain America (Movies)," and Spider-Man (All Media Types)", to include the fact that I'm drawing from The Incredible Spider-Man movies, the comics, *and* the MCU movies, as well as basing most of my CA character stuff on the movie canon and setting it in the main MCU Timeline. Since Marvel fandom has all those "Compliant with X Movie" and "Not Compliant with X movie" additional tags to denote where in the MCU timeline a fic takes place, I find just using fandom tags to cut down on the number of tags while still conveying the same info a better use of space than having lots of fusion or reference tags, even if it doesn't really affect the way the fic shows up in search results.
      
      Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:33PM UTC
      
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5. BritHistorian Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:35AM UTC
  
  Just to make sure I'm understanding things here: Am I correct in understanding that a work with a subtag will show up in a search for the subtag or for the tag that it's a subtag of? For example, I have a work that is tagged both "Boarding School" and "Alternate Universe - Boarding School" - does this mean that if I only tagged it with "Alternate Universe - Boarding School" (since that's a subtag of "Boarding School") that it would show up in the searches for either one? If so, that has the potential to really change the way I tag things.
  (I'll have to look things up for a while, though, to be sure I've got the relationships between tags right. For example, I would have guessed that "Caning" would be a subtag of "Spanking," but it's not. They both fall under the Impact Play/Sensation Play/BDSM metatags, but they're otherwise unrelated. [Which I can see a good argument for doing it that way as well; it just wasn't the first way that would have come to mind. [I also would have thought "Spanking" and "Paddling" would be synonymous, but apparently they're not. (Now let's see if I can find my way out of this set of nest parentheses!)]) Ah, that's better! I was getting claustrophobic in there. ^_^
  Anyway, to actually answer your question: In my case it was because I (apparently) didn't understand the relationship between nested tags. Thanks for bringing this to my attention!
  
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6. 1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:13AM UTC
    
    That matches my understanding of how subtags behave. It would be nice if there was a button to automatically highlight redundant tags when you're editing them, but there isn't. Not yet at least.
    
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  2. 1. unobtainable Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:39AM UTC
      
      Now that would be an amazing feature!
      
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    2. BritHistorian Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:51PM UTC
      
      That would be awesome!
      
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    3. Alyndra Sat 28 Aug 2021 01:04AM UTC
      
      My dream feature would be letting the tag page (like this one) appear on hover when you're on the Post or Edit pages. So many answers at the tip of the fingers.
      
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  3. Izilen Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:12AM UTC
    
    Yes, that’s absolutely right. If you use a canonical tag that has been nested under one or more metatags, your work, and any works with that canonical tag will in effect be treated by the filters the same way that works that have the metatag are. In other words: for filtering purposes, you only ever need to use the most specific tag in a tag tree to achieve the same results.
    For a specific example: all works tagged “ Alternate Universe - High School” also appear when you search and filter for plain “High School”, because “High School” is a metatag of “Alternate Universe - High School”. Similarly, “Alternate Universe” is also a metatag of “Alternate Universe - High School”, so all works tagged with the latter tag will be treated by the filters as though they were tagged with the former as well! For filtering purposes, a work tagged “Alternate Universe, Alternate Universe - High School, High School” in fact could use just the one more specific tag of the three without this affecting in any way how it is filtered.
    You can check the metatag/subtag relationships of any tag by looking at its tag landing page, such as https://archiveofourown.org/tags/High%20School
    
    Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:49AM UTC
    
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  4. 1. BritHistorian Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:51PM UTC
      
      Awesome! Thank you for the explanation!
      
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  5. GreenQuilll Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:24AM UTC
    
    This is actually how subtags/metatags work. I'll stick with my example (Smut/Eventual Smut). "Eventual Smut" is nested under Smut. That means even if you *only* tag your story with "Eventual Smut", it will show up when someone includes the tag "Smut" and will no longer show up when someone excludes the tag "Smut". However, since "Eventual Smut" is only a subtag, the same is NOT true in reverse. That is, if you include "Eventual Smut", you will only see "Eventual Smut". You can also filter out "Eventual Smut" by excluding it when you search for the Tag "Smut"
    Yes, it's not always obvious exactly how tags are nested. I'll have to check a few more, too. Spatz on page two mentioned a very good tip on how to do this easily (go into the tag and delete the "/work" from the URL line at the top, it will show you all the info). For me, that was the most helpful post here. With my metatag that I deleted, I had found out by accident at the time how the system worked. But I had no clue how to check the function.
    
    Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:34AM UTC
    
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  6. 1. BritHistorian Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:47PM UTC
      
      Thanks for the extra info!
      
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    2. Alyndra Sat 28 Aug 2021 01:29AM UTC
      
      If you're already on a tag's works page, you can get to the page you're looking for by clicking the big text link where it says "1 - 20 of 16918 Works in Identity" (or whatever the name of the tag is).
      
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7. Sineala Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:45AM UTC
  
  These days I consistently use the fandom metatags, actually. It makes my dashboard fandom list much more conveniently organized.
  I currently write in Marvel Comics, predominately Marvel 616. And I understand that if I tag for, say, New Avengers, it will still show up in the metatag searches for Marvel Comics, Marvel 616, and Avengers. But not all of my Marvel Comics fic is 616, and most of it is the same pairing in different continuities, and a lot of fans of this pairing will happily read the pairing in many different continuities. Using the fandom metatag Marvel Comics means that at the top of my dashboard page I can click on Marvel Comics and get everything I have written for any continuity of Marvel Comics, with one quick and easy click. That won't appear as a fandom on my dashboard unless I use the metatag at least once, even though the fic is searchable by metatags throughout the site. So I use the metatag. Yes, I could filter on my works page, but this is faster and more convenient.
  Also, there are a whole lot of obscure Marvel Comics continuities that not everyone is going to recognize on sight but that they might read fic in anyway, and someone who wants to read my Marvel fic who might be perfectly willing to read, say, a Bullet Points story isn't going to click on "Bullet Points" in my fandom list if they've never heard of it, but if it shows up when they click on the list of Marvel Comics stories I have written, they might take a chance on it.
  Similarly, I've been in the situation more than once where I'm browsing an author's profile, interested in their comics fanfiction, but if they only tag individual comics titles I have to guess whether their fic about two characters who are traditionally Avengers is the one story tagged only with X-Factor and no other fandoms... and sometimes it actually is. It's not always obvious which characters will be tagged with which individual comics title, but they will definitely show up in the writer's metatag fandom if the writer uses the metatag.
  tl;dr: Metatags are actually pretty helpful in finding work in some comics fandoms.
  
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8. 1. GreenQuilll Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:04PM UTC
    
    I absolutely agree with you that it can make sense to use the metatag for wide-ranging franchises, especially if you're writing about characters that appear in different releases of the franchise or the like, for example. But one more question, because it's unclear to me: does that mean you *only* use the metatag or both? I'm not into Marvel Comics, unfortunately, but you gave "New Avengers" as an example of a subtag. Does that mean you then tag "New Avengers" and e.g. "Avengers" or just "Avengers"? Thanks for the answer :)
    
    Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:05PM UTC
    
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  2. 1. Sineala Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:05PM UTC
      
      Me personally? All of the above, plus one more.
      Pretty much all my fic about a New Avengers team (which is made up of multiple different teams over the years, so I usually use a volume tag in the Additional Tags section to say which one I mean) is tagged: Marvel Comics, Marvel 616, Avengers, New Avengers.
      I am definitely not the only person writing this pairing who tags with this level of specificity. I've seen some people go all the way up the metatag and tag Marvel (I don't, mostly because I very rarely write in non-comics universes); similarly, some people will also tag for the solo comics the characters they are writing about are in -- okay, yes, it's Steve/Tony, so some people might also tag it Captain America (Comics) and Iron Man (Comics). I don't usually bother, because I think that's covered in the character tags.
      So, yes, it does mean that I will probably tag a story that could be considered "a New Avengers story" with four different fandoms, and that someone else might potentially use seven, but with the way the metatags are currently displayed on the site, it's pretty much the convention a lot of us unofficially settled on so we can all find our comics fic on our own and each other's AO3 dashboards. It was definitely a convention more than one person suggested to me when I started writing in the fandom.
      
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