Upcoming limit on tags per work

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2021-08-24 21:12:26 UTC

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In the coming days, we'll be rolling out a code change that limits the total number of fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags that can be added to a work. This limit of 75 tags will apply to both new and existing works, but no tags will be automatically removed from existing works.

Why place a limit on tags?

Having a limit on tags will:

help keep work blurbs to a reasonable length, improving the experience of navigating work listings, and
encourage creators to tag for the most important elements of their works, improving the quality of search results.

Why 75 tags?

We looked at all the works on the Archive and determined that:

the average number of tags per work is 17,
the most common number of tags per work is 11, and
less than 0.5% of works have more than 75 tags.

A limit of 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags per work will provide the vast majority of creators with enough space to describe the content of their works while also keeping work blurbs to a manageable size.

Why don't ratings, categories, and warnings count toward the limit?

Ratings, categories, and warnings already have limits of their own. A work can only have one rating, and the number of categories and warnings a work can have is limited by the number of options provided on the posting form.

What should I do if I notice someone's work has more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?

Nothing! Works that exceed the tag limit do not violate the Terms of Service and should not be reported to the Policy & Abuse team or the Support team.

What happens to previously posted works with more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?

Nothing! The work will keep all of its tags.

However, if the work creator wants to edit the work or add a chapter, they will have to remove some of their fandom, character, relationship, and/or additional tags before they can save their changes. (An error message will tell the creator exactly how many tags must be removed.)

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mattysones Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:01AM UTC

Thank god. Now we won't have that MDZS fic situation happen again.
Please continue doing great work!!

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minanoux Fri 27 Aug 2021 11:01AM UTC

Thanks for putting up at least a little limit. But 75 is still way too much in my opinion. 15 to 20 tags would be enough. I'm here to read stories, not walls of tags. Actually I don't look at all at works with extensive tags - I just overscroll them completely.
Put a few tags for the main themes of the story and write a good, enticing summary! THAT is what lures me into a closer look at the work. Any further chatting can go into the notes section or an "author's chatter part" at the beginning of the story.
Just my 2 cents.

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1. butterflyslinky Fri 27 Aug 2021 11:06AM UTC
  
  The problem with 15-20 tags is if you're writing an ensemble piece, you can easily hit that limit just with characters--and yes, it is possible to write a story where 15 different characters all have an important enough role to warrant a tag. 75 is a good number that makes sure the writers can tag everything relevant while still having some flexibility.
  
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2. 1. Lion_owl Sun 29 Aug 2021 05:50PM UTC
    
    👆🏼 @butterflyslinky indeed!
    
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3. Jackaloki Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:14PM UTC
  
  It's easy to get in excess of 50 tags when you're writing a novel length fic. For me, Ao3's tagging system is one of the things that sets it apart from other fanfiction sites that only allow a few tags per story.
  
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4. 1. Kresnik Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:38PM UTC
    
    Agreed. Ffnet for example, has a really bad tagging system. Well, maybe not bad persay but incredibly basic. You can have 2 genres and 4 characters. Any relationships must be within those 4 characters and you can't have love triangles or threesomes either.
    Also, there's no place to put warnings and the like.. Heck, Author notes are prohibited in the TOS last I checked! Well it's the least enforced rule on the entire website, alongside the no adult content one 😂
    
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  2. 1. Jackaloki Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:00PM UTC
      
      I kind of didn't want to call them out specifically, but yeah. They also rearange your character tags automatically, and the size of the description isn't long enough to tell anyone what the story's about.
      
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    2. Osidiano Sat 28 Aug 2021 07:12AM UTC
      
      Author's notes aren't prohibited in the TOS; uploading a story or chapter that is ONLY an author's note is prohibited. So if your note is included at the top or bottom of a chapter of actual fic, you're good, and I think that's great. It's super disappointing to think a story you're following has finally updated but it's just the author telling you they aren't updating. Like, friendo, you don't need to disclose a bunch of personal stuff to random strangers on the internet out of guilt just because you missed an arbitrary deadline you made to yourself; this is a fic archive, not your blog. If you really feel like you have to tell your readers on the site, edit the ending of the previous chapter and we'll see it on the re-read or add a note to your profile bio.
      
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5. Ceo_of_Komayuki Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:20PM UTC
  
  15 tags is way too little
  i think 75 tags is a good number that encompasses the majority of longer fics
  if you want the tag list to be shorter, i think there's some skins you can use instead!
  
  Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:22PM UTC
  
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maleyka Fri 27 Aug 2021 12:49PM UTC

Excellent!

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boredone27 Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:37PM UTC

As a reader I'm very thankful for this, I read fics on phone a lot and huge wall of tags are near unreadable. I hope this will cut down on the fics with millions fandom tags that is actually just short drabbles, it's hard to navigate and lots of them always end up at the top by date.

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1. Kresnik Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:40PM UTC
  
  Would you rather one large fic with many tags, or hundreds of individual works each of them only about 300 words long
  Since with those big multifandom ones that's usually the options. People just collect it into a single work to avoid spam.
  Plus trying to navigate an authors page if they had hundreds of works or trying to find a particular work on their page would be very difficult
  
  Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:40PM UTC
  
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2. 1. Sparky_Lurkdragon Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:44PM UTC
    
    Honestly? I'd rather the hundreds of small fics. They're a lot easier to find and categorise as individual ficlets, and each one can get the attention it deserves.
    I think these collections would be a lot better served as, well, collections.
    
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  2. 1. Kresnik Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:56PM UTC
      
      I would agree but I know a lot of people search by word count or kudos, and short drabbles often get passed over or not even seen in the search.
      That's why people put them into a single work in the first place I think. Higher word count, potentially more viewers, also if it's good then people might subscribe to see what you post next.
      Collections are good too but again, it's lack of exposure. Most people just want to type into the search bar, filter by a couple parameters, then browse. Not looking any further, sadly.
      
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    2. 1. MintGreen_and_NeonPink Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:13PM UTC
        
        I'm sorry if this comes off as rude, but frankly, if I "filter by couple parameters", I'd rather get a bunch of short works that fit those parameteres perfectly, rather than a 100 chapters long oneshot collection set up by an author who's forcefully trying to make me look at more of their work. No thank you. The beautiful promise of AO3 tag filtering system is that it is supposed to deliver to you only the kinds of works - containing themes, tropes, relationships or characters - that you want to read about. Multichapter oneshot works throw a wrench in this.
        I am a rarepair shipper, I LIVE off of short drabbles and I am tired of having my ship's tag clogged by giant, bloated collections, where my beloved ship is mentioned in one chapter of 40. Also, nothing is stopping people from subscribing to someone whose single drabble they liked if they wanna look at more of their works. All they need to do is subscribe to the profile rather than to the work.
        I think the issue boils down to a question of whether the Archive should primarily serve readers or writers. I believe it is the former and the comfort of the readers searching for works that cater to their tastes should be prioritized over the author's ability to promote themselves by any means necessary (and for the record, I say that as a person who uses AO3 both as a reader and as a writer).
        
        Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:17PM UTC
        
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      2. Kresnik Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:41PM UTC
        
        Rude? Not at all, it's your opinion, and you expressed it in a civil and polite way 👍
        I too find giant one shot collections annoying, but I'd find it more annoying to be looking for something in a rarepair tag and there are endless short stories with 100 words, to be honest it's annoying to have to open up a dozen tabs to read all of it. Particularly on mobile it can be difficult to manage so many tabs.
        But I digress.
        I think it should be an even balance between reader and writer. The archive is not just for readers, but writers too. It's for everyone, equally.
        Restricting tags is a decision that only benefits the readers. It offers no value to writers, potentially it even removes functionality for writers.
        A better way could've been to truncate the tag lists, for example, after x number of tags, have a "see more" button. Have this be a feature one can turn on or off, have it on by default, allow people to choose the limit to impose...
        That would solve the major issue (too many tags shown on screen) whilst still allowing people to tag as thoroughly as they wish.
        This would also benefit users of screen readers, since they could block off all but a minimal amount of tags. Even 75 tags will take a stupidly long time to read out on a screen reader. It's not friendly towards screen readers at all.
        The second issue, too many oneshots in a single work, is still not resolved.
        Clearly there is a need for a way to publish a collection of oneshots, other than posting endless separate works.
        Plus shorter works typically get viewed less. (That's actually a statistic shared on the Wikipedia page for ao3)
        So, that's a definite downside if you do post these short works separately -- expect to lose readers.
        As annoying as those hundred tag multifandom oneshot collections may be, they clearly work in some way to get readers.
        
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        (7 more comments in this thread)
      3. Elf (Elf_Herself) Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:32PM UTC
        
        I often filter by word count or kudos. I'm usually looking for fics to download to my ereader, and it's almost a waste of time to download anything less than 10k words.
        When I find some 25-to-50k word ficlect collection spanning six fandoms and two dozen pairings... I usually add it to my blocklist so I don't keep finding it when I filter for other pairings.
        If it were posted as separate stories, I might never see it. Or I might - because sometimes I don't filter by kudos or word count, because I know I miss some smaller gems that way. I search by pairing or character and maybe by kink or trope. And I'm happy to read drabbles! I'm just not going to crawl through a 25-chapter random collection to find the one drabble about the pairing I like.
        
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      4. Terrie Sun 29 Aug 2021 05:58PM UTC
        
        If you're searching by word count, you're probably looking for long, plotty stories, and unlikely to open up a drabble collection in the first place.
        
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      5. DragonSoulDreams Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:14PM UTC
        
        If they'd implemented block/mute before tag limits, I suspect those dribble bins would have found that they're suddenly getting no hits at all. Anyone searching for long fics would block the author, and anyone searching for short fics wouldn't even see them.
        
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  3. amberquartz Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:55PM UTC
    
    I know some people who specifically search for 100-500 word fics, and those are impossible to find when they get thrown into one-shot collections! Everyone consumes fic differently, and some people actually really enjoy those shorter bite-sized stories!
    
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  4. 1. Kresnik Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:02PM UTC
      
      Very true, I can understand wanting short stuff jf you don't have a lot of time or energy to commit to a bigger one, or for any reasons really.
      A way to better find oneshot collections would be great. Tags could be inconsistent.
      Maybe they could have a separate entry type that when you click it, it lists everything like a series, and you can tag each oneshot individually... But that only has a single entry when searched for.
      Like collections, but more specifically for one shots. Also, searchable! ❤️
      
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    2. amorenbalde Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:04PM UTC
      
      Right? Tbf i am the opposite and filter out short stories and get annoyed by the 100-chapter megafics with bad tagging trying to trick me into read their drabbles. No thanks.
      
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    3. 1. Kresnik Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:13PM UTC
        
        Ngl I do the same. Unless it's got a rarepair I like tagged in there somewhere 🤣
        
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      2. Tayefeth Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:46PM UTC
        
        And if it does, I'd rather it didn't require navigating poorly titled chapters in a huge "story", rather than being a separate work.
        I usually delete notifications for those ficlet collections without reading them, to be honest.
        
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  5. grommile Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:32PM UTC
    
    hundreds of individual works, each appropriately tagged for fandom and pairing so that the user is not bumping their drabble bin to the first page of a hundred fandoms every time they write a drabble for one of them.
    (yes, I have a drabble/fragment bin. after reading the discussion on this news post, I am starting to unspool it into a Series and will not be adding further to the original work)
    
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  6. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:35PM UTC
      
      FWIW, I do know people who like the "ficlet bin" fanworks. They're just really frustrating for those of us looking for rarepairs or kinks, especially the ones that aren't well-indexed. (And maybe yours are, but readers mostly can't see that from the summary that shows up on searches.)
      Thank you for reconsidering and switching to series!
      
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  7. boredone27 Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:41PM UTC
    
    Hundreds of individual works are still better to scroll through on phone, there would be spaces after each works instead of big giant wall of tags that I can accidentally tap on while trying to scroll through. Not too many tags also mean I can skim through faster to see if there is any specific trop that interest me. Too many tags together are really hard to read.
    For author's works I usually just filter by fandom. I don't often read drabbles anyway so if an author write mainly drabbles I most likely will not read their fics.
    
    Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:44PM UTC
    
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  8. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:42PM UTC
    
    "Since with those big multifandom ones that's usually the options. People just collect it into a single work to avoid spam."
    No, no they're not. The big multifandom drabble collections are NOT a choice between one big work (with a million tags) and a hundred little ones being displayed in the search. For one thing, if it were split up then that big multifandom thing would only have a FEW works in each of those fandoms. Not only would it only have a few, but they wouldn't hog the top of the first page of the search results FOR FREAKING EVER.
    
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  9. stormy1x2 Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:09PM UTC
    
    I would prefer hundreds of individual works. Because if i want to read all of them, I could click on the 'series' name and read them 1x1. But if I'm looking for Marco/Ace OP fanfic, I don't want the first 50 results of my search to be fics that have a 300 word M/A drabble in amongst the 500 other fandoms, especially since I'd have to click on the fic and go searching for the pairing inside it when if it's in it's own work, it would come up by itself and I wouldn't have to deal with that headache.
    ....I think that made sense. I know what I want to say but I am also running on very little sleep right now and sometimes the words don't come out the same way as they appear in my head. ^^;
    But that's just my opinion and preferences, no more, no less.
    
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  10. 1. Nightcandle Sat 28 Aug 2021 07:46AM UTC
      
      Don't worry, it does make sense.
      And I wholeheartedly agree with you.
      
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    2. 1. stormy1x2 Sat 28 Aug 2021 07:57AM UTC
        
        Ah, always good to know when I'm NOT spouting gibberish - it happens so rarely, you see. :)
        
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      2. Nightcandle Sat 28 Aug 2021 01:18PM UTC
        
        :D
        
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  11. LovelyPoet Sat 28 Aug 2021 01:33AM UTC
    
    Hundreds of individual short works. All day every day.
    
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3. Kresnik Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:44PM UTC
  
  I mean one could instead write like 100 separate rarepair drabbles of 300 words each and make it the most tagged ship in a fandom, totally trolling all the other shippers, flooding the fandom tag with endless stuff... But that would just be rude right?
  
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4. 1. Roissy Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:59PM UTC
    
    No? Lenght doesn't give a work legitimacy. 100 different drabbles are still 100 different drabbles, they are works of their own and deserving of their own space. They do not inflate any number and it's not spam…. And… ? The concept that a number of works in fic is trolling other shipper is… quite odd in itself? Why would other shipper care if another fic has a higher or lower number?
    Anyway, I'd frankly welcome them more as separate works because I can successfully filter them by wordcount if I'm in the mood for shorter stories and i can filter them by tags, and read the summaries and decide if I want to read one or more of them. It's usually not possible with those collections. Which i never read because it's impossible to understand what each chapter is about.
    
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  2. 1. Kresnik Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:12PM UTC
      
      Obviously word count doesn't matter that much, a work is a work whether it's 5 words or 100 000. However as you said many people just filter by word count or pass over something that is too short to catch their attention. Unless you specially are looking for those short works...
      Edit: in fact back in 2013 it was found short works with 1, 000 words, were most likely to have less than 150 hits, whilst a novel length work on average, would about at least 10 times more views. (source, ao3 Wikipedia page)
      End edit
      And shippers would complain about anything. For instance on the shipping fandom wiki, the pages have a feature where they automatically pull tag numbers from ao3, and people debate, argue and fight about what's the most popular ships in a fandom.
      So, suppose people decided to publish a whole bunch of little fics for an unpopular pairing, and it changes the rankings, there could be shipping wars. Well, scratch that, definitely ship wars because people are wild 😂
      I do agree with wanting to filter them out those! I too, sort by word count. Mainly because I hate it when I read something just AMAZING but it's only 3,000 words and the author has no plans to ever write more. Or unfinished stories that never got past chapter 01. Podfics and other miscellany.
      I wrote a bit about it in another comment, but I'd love if they added a work type for oneshot collections. A single entry, but you can click into it like a collection, browse like its a series, and tag each work individually and have separate tags for the entire thing as well.
      
      Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:43PM UTC
      
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  3. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:27PM UTC
    
    Well, with the tag limit, everyone who writes drabbles might start posting them as series instead of one fic so would someone trying to troll the other shippers really be successful?
    
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  4. menatarms Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:59PM UTC
    
    If someone's doing so many different rare pairs that they need 75+ tags, they're still trolling the shippers - who gets to see that fic at the top of their ship tag over and over because 3 years ago the author deigned to write something for it. Please, flood the tag if you have something but GTFO of it when you don't. A giant wall of a fic showing up again and again with zero new relevance is 1000% more memorable and is way more rude then a bunch of separate drabbles.
    
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5. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:29PM UTC
  
  As a reader myself, I also see that side but as a writer, I think we need a tag counter to help us cut down and make things easier on the readers
  
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borderparasol Fri 27 Aug 2021 02:40PM UTC

So I've been seeing Dragon Age fandom mentioned a lot as a fandom that would be adversely affected by the 75 tag limit and may I just say, as someone who reads a lot in the fandom, no it wouldn't be. If anything, Dragon Age fandom is one of the fandoms that desperately NEEDS a 75 tag limit.
Dragon Age fandom has a large problem of people tagging for every character that shows up in a fic even if they only say one line or show up in the background for one chapter. They'll tag for a character if the character essentially shows up as the NPC giving the quest or is mentioned tagging along with the party. That gives you situations regarding certain characters where they don't prominently feature in at least 75% of the fic they're tagged in—which absolutely happens, I'm a Cole fan, trying to find actual fic prominently featuring him in the Cole tag is near impossible, as people will tag for Cole even if he only has one or two lines in the entire 50,000 word fic.
Using tags like "Ensemble Cast," "Background Inquisition Members," "Various Friendships," etc. would do a lot of good in Dragon Age fandom and I sincerely hope that the 75 tag limit encourages Dragon Age fandom to use tags like that.

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wolfish_willow Fri 27 Aug 2021 02:48PM UTC

Totally understand the need to implement something like this and I'm glad that the number chosen was high enough that it doesn't feel too restrictive while still taking care of those fics people keep talking about with like a page worth of tags. It's good to know that if I write something with a bunch of characters, I still have room for all of the Additional Tags I want.

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1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:21PM UTC
  
  Just be warned that there is no visible tag counter so you'll have to count the tags yourself or risk not being in compliance. When they limited the tags, I just wish they had added a counter that we could see to make coming into compliance easier. I saw a comment below that explained it's an accessibility issue, excessive tags make things hard for blind readers who can't easily scroll past these fics since they can't see where one fic ends and another begins on the screen. That, that should've been included in the above announcement because that really put things into perspective for me. I still think there are ways this system could've been better implemented, ways writers should've been considered, but seeing it as an accessibility issue has really cooled the flames of my frustration. Next, I hope they add a counter or else some of my most popular fics will have to be on indefinite hiatus.
  
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2. 1. wolfish_willow Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:41PM UTC
    
    That's a good point! Personally I'm okay with counting them myself but I don't use a ton of tags (mostly because I'm never sure if I've written enough of something to warrant tagging it). After going through my fics I think the most tags I've used is just a bit under 40 (I forgot to include fandom tags at the time) so I'm unlikely to write something that goes over that myself. But it would be cool if they come up with a counter that we could toggle on and off as desired.
    
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  2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:17PM UTC
      
      The site must have a counter already or else it wouldn't be able to stop us from posting in excess of 75 tags. All I'm asking is that they make that counter visible to help trim tags as needed. Also, if Wall of Tags is such a common phenomenon (and this wouldn't be happening if it wasn't) then how do they get averages of 11 or 17 tags per work?
      
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    2. 1. saterelly Sat 28 Aug 2021 12:55AM UTC
        
        The Wall of Tags is a problem because one multifandom work can have umpteen fandoms tagged. Let's say 50, and it updates once a week. That means that Wall appears in 50 different places every week. Now let's say that 25 multifan writers do this, and while they overlap, they don't completely, so each new writer brings the problem to 10 new fandoms, while the overlapping ones get more walls god knows how many more times...
        So the average stays the same because it only counts works once as a whole (not even counting it on how many times it updates), but each of these works is causing massive frustration all over the website on an ongoing basis.
        
        Last Edited Sat 28 Aug 2021 01:19AM UTC
        
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      2. Blue_Hood Sat 28 Aug 2021 02:53AM UTC
        
        Ok
        
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      3. Nightcandle Sat 28 Aug 2021 08:39AM UTC
        
        how do they get averages of 11 or 17 tags per work?
        Especially older works or works imported by Open Doors from sites which didn't use an exrended tagging system often have a rather low number of tags (for reference: All Works, sorted by date posted ascending).
        There's enough of those works to counter the works with a high number of tags when calculating the average.
        
        Last Edited Sat 28 Aug 2021 08:41AM UTC
        
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      4. bunnymcfoo Sat 28 Aug 2021 09:21AM UTC
        
        It also varies wildly by fandom - I mostly read in hockey rpf these days, and it's extremely common to find recently posted fics that are tagged with, like, the pairing and "werewolf AU" and that's it.
        
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        Blue_Hood Sat 28 Aug 2021 12:52PM UTC
        
        I see. It just seemed like a crazy low number considering the issue at hand is Wall of Tags
        
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  3. i_dwell_in_darkness Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:56PM UTC
    
    If you have access to a desktop interface, I found a quick way to double check this. I went to edit one of my fic's tags, selected the text from the Fandoms through the Additional Tags sections, copied it, and pasted it into a plain text editor. Then, I searched for the × character.
    If you try to copy and paste from directly from the work blurb, your tags will be all smashed together, since the commas aren't actually text. However, doing it this way will give you one × per tag; the number of search results in your text editor is your fic's total number of tags.
    
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  4. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:26PM UTC
      
      I'm confused. What's this x you keep referring to?
      
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    2. 1. i_dwell_in_darkness Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:28PM UTC
        
        If you go to edit a fic's tags, you will see each existing tag followed by a little circle with a red × in it. You can click that × to remove a tag. If you copy and paste that page's content into a plain text editor, that × will be pasted along with the text of each tag, one per tag. It's a typographical character, just like any of the letters/numbers/symbols making up the text of the tag.
        Here is an image from the FAQ that shows part of what this looks like:
        img src="http://media.archiveofourown.org/tutorials/additionaltags.png"
        
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      2. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:38PM UTC
        
        Okay got it
        
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    3. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:56PM UTC
      
      The commas aren't text, but if you copy the work blurb you can paste it into a google sheet and the tags will paste one-per-line, making the line number of the last tag the number you have. Slightly fewer steps than your approach, but both ways work just fine.
      
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flockofcrows Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:20PM UTC

Oh, thank god.

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1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:17PM UTC
  
  That's a pretty extreme reaction. Wall of Tags is an issue, I get that, but the solution created new problems, in my opinion. I hope this is just the first of several changes to balance things out. I had to cut half the tags in a fic because when they limited tags, they didn't add a counter so I had no idea how far over I was. Hopefully nobody tries to search for my fic under one of the cut tags.
  
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2. 1. itsjustpoopeh Sat 28 Aug 2021 02:47AM UTC
    
    if you're over the limit you'll get an error message telling you how many over the limit you are
    
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  2. 1. Blue_Hood Sat 28 Aug 2021 02:57AM UTC
      
      Not exactly. Not when you're trying to update a fic and you get the error message and that doesn't help me know how many more tags I can add in the future, if needed, without going over
      
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    2. 1. itsjustpoopeh Sat 28 Aug 2021 04:46AM UTC
        
        tbh from scanning the comments i've seen multiple people giving you tips and tricks on easy ways to count your tags so at this point it's pretty obvious you're just determined to continue to shift goalposts and stay mad. that's cool but it's a you problem, not a site problem. my choice in this situation is to use a script to make sure I never see any work from authors who overtag and are overwrought that their ability to continue to spam the search feed is being curtailed.
        
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      2. Blue_Hood Sat 28 Aug 2021 12:51PM UTC
        
        Tbh, I have listened to those people - not that you care, clearly - and trimmed the tags on my longest fics but I still think a tag counter would be helpful.
        
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Kresnik Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:32PM UTC

Was this ever even voted on or just a change the admin decided to make... Did the community even get consulted? If you didn't even ask people thats pretty sad. That kinda thing is why people don't like ffnet. Please don't become ffnet 😔
Also, why not just truncate the list when there are tags more than say 25... Add a "see more... " button. Or add a scroll bar. There are custom themes for this site that do all of those things... Surely it would be easier to code, and it would make EVERYONE happy.

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1. Jackaloki Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:49PM UTC
  
  Personally, I think 75 isn't terrible if we have to have a limit, but the "see more" idea isn't bad, if the main objection to people using too many tags is that people are annoyed by seeing walls of tags.
  
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2. amorenbalde Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:51PM UTC
  
  judging by the comments here, most users are happy with that change.
  there's no need for that many tags. basic ship tag, other character tags if necessary, a few basic tags and a good summary- anything else is just spam and will not make people want to read your story.
  
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3. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:03PM UTC
    
    Avid writers can see the avid readers side and be respectful (maybe not me personally but I discovered this in a bad way). Why can't avid readers who don't write much see our side? Why do you have to comment to say "stop complaining, this is more than fair"? All Kresnik is saying is that he wishes they had some input. He's saying it's sad that AO3 didn't give both sides a chance to hash this out and takes after a site that he doesn't like.
    
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  2. 1. amorenbalde Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:18PM UTC
      
      i'm not saying the authors of those 0.5% of all AO3 fics that exceed the 75 tag limit should "stop complaining" as it were, but perhaps re-think how they use (and perhaps mis-use) the tags.
      
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    2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:12PM UTC
        
        I wish we had a tag counter we could use to see how far over we went before this rule was in effect and more easily trim the tags of WiPs we wish to update. Sorry for jumping your ship but can you see my side in this? I go to update a fic and it won't even let me save the new chapter as draft because I have an unspecified number of tags exceeding the new 75 tag limit
        
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      2. vanetta Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:38PM UTC
        
        I would highly recommend not writing your story directly on AO3. Drafts are only saved a month, I believe, and one miss-click can easily delete a whole chapter. I'd really recommend writing on Google Docs, Open Office or elsewhere and then copy the chapter into AO3's text editor when it's done. That way you'll be able to edit the tags at the same time and won't have a problem with the editor not allowing you to save drafts.
        
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        grommile Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:48PM UTC
        
        Drafts of new works are saved for a month.
        Drafts of new chapters in existing works are saved forever.
        
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        vanetta Sun 29 Aug 2021 11:50AM UTC
        
        Did not know that. I never dared using the draft feature because I was always too afraid of losing what I'd written. Thanks for informing me of that. :)
        
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        luxurias Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:41PM UTC
        
        However, if the work creator wants to edit the work or add a chapter, they will have to remove some of their fandom, character, relationship, and/or additional tags before they can save their changes. (An error message will tell the creator exactly how many tags must be removed.)
        This was at the end of the post. If you're over the limit when you go to save it should tell you how many tags you're over by.
        
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4. FreddieDimmick Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:13PM UTC
  
  In a way, yes, this is in direct response to the community. Ten years of Support tickets from disabled users and more recently Support and Abuse tickets about users using the tag section to break the integrity of the site have lead to this decision. There are comments from people using screenreaders and Braille readers in this post that explain why surface truncation and scroll bars don't solve the accessibility issue.
  
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5. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:09PM UTC
    
    Okay, that's fair. Thank you for explaining in full instead of just saying "most people are happy, stop complaining" like some other commenters. I can see the issue that lead to this. The only issue I really, truly have is in the execution of this change. The lack of warning, being unable to warn readers about how I'm going to change the tags, and not being able to save a new chapter as a draft while I update my tags which could've made me lose the chapter. Those are my primary issues as an author. I didn't think about accessibility. Thank you for the input
    
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6. butterflyslinky Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:22PM UTC
  
  As someone pointed out in an earlier thread, AO3 never takes a vote on site changes or coding. They have a board and committees who make those decisions since putting it to a vote of all users would be time-consuming and kind of impossible. The best way to have a say in how AO3 runs is to join the OTW and get on one of those committees.
  
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7. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:10PM UTC
    
    Okay. I just wish we had some warning so we could prepare to change tags on WiPs and warn readers of tags being cut before they were. Those are my main issues with this system, it was implemented so suddenly
    
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8. CeeCee (CheyanneChika) Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:40PM UTC
  
  Not a coder but has run into similar issues: I imagine that limiting tags is something the AO3 coders can do internally and have that default across everything because it's an internal fix that happens automatically, whereas a "show more" would have to be compatible with every device, every browser and every extension being run on those browsers, which a volunteer group can't manage with everything else that could go wrong also happening.
  
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9. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:13PM UTC
    
    Okay. Another idea that some fellow authors and I have kicked around is separate limits for the different types of tags. Maybe 75 Additional Tags and 12 fandom tags or something. Would that be equally arduous or easier?
    
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  2. 1. CeeCee (CheyanneChika) Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:42PM UTC
      
      I personally would not mind that and idk if it would be more arduous (still not a coder, "run into similar issues" is really listening to my worker bemoan under reported app and web updates while while we troubleshoot to keep elements of our site still functional across platforms), I'm in the school that the number should be higher. when the sexytimes debacle happened it had, what, 2000 tags before it started breaking the site? 200 tags was sort of the number I would have leaned toward. even 500 though I would probably never touch a fic with that many tags.
      
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    2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:48PM UTC
        
        We'll have to wait and see how AO3 plays this but at the very least, they could give us a tag counter so we know how many over the limit we are with existing works and help us stay under the limit with new fics
        
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      2. bunnymcfoo Sat 28 Aug 2021 09:32AM UTC
        
        I have AO3 set up so that I don't even see fics with more than 50 tags and anything over 20 scrolls - and I know for a fact that I'm far from the only one who has similar settings.
        IMO anything over 75 tags is a great advertisement that the author can't edit.
        
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10. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:59PM UTC
  
  Community was not consulted, I guarantee it. Admins got a lot of complaints about Wall of Tag fics and used an algorithm to pick a random number. Seriously, according to them fics average 11 or 17 tags so they chose to limit us to 75. I agree with your suggestion. Having a see more option would fix the search problem and allow authors to be extremely accurate/precise in their tagging. It's refreshing to see someone taking my side in this sea of people shouting "this is more than fair because 75 is a lot". 75 is a lot if it was just Additional Tags but with fandoms, relationships and characters being grouped together with additional tags, this makes accurately tagging crossovers and one-shot collections a nightmare. Glad to see someone agrees
  
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11. Elf (Elf_Herself) Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:51PM UTC
  
  As mentioned, new features and policies aren't subject to public vote; the board & various committees decide on those. (There was no public discussion about adding the "exclude" function to search filters, either.) That doesn't mean they weren't discussed - OTW is a large org with an active staff/volunteer community, and major changes get discussed.
  Tag Wranglers are several hundred people, and I'm pretty sure the idea of tag limits was discussed with them, and they'd go into how they'd expect that to affect their work, the pros and cons they can see, and so on. (Tag wranglers usually love interesting tags, so "some people will stop using cute/funny tags" is in the "cons" column.)
  OTW decisions aren't made by a handful of board members who are out of touch with fandom. All the staff members are active, avid users of AO3. All of them are aware that fandom is huge and has a lot of different interests, and a feature that helps one group is probably going to bother or hurt someone else, and they need to balance that out.
  Average and median tags are well under 20. Even for very long fics, the median is about 30. So 75 is "double what most people use and then some."
  There's reasons they didn't use a read-more/scrollbar approach. Some of it has to do with screen readers and things like reading on a phone (where a full screen of tags can mean you accidentally open one when you're trying to scroll past). Some is that there've been endless complaints over the last 10+ years about "people keep tagging for characters that don't actually show up in the fic." (Like, they are mentioned by other characters. Or they live in the same house but don't make an appearance.)
  And this isn't technically against the rules - AO3 abuse team takes a very hands-off approach for how-to-tag. If you want to tag for "my headcanon is that these four characters from this other fandom used to live in this place so they're in the character tags," that's allowed, even though it's frustrating as hell for the people searching for fic about those characters.
  This is a new feature meant to fix the wall-o-tags fics that actually cause technical problems, plus it addresses a lot of users' interest in having tags be more usable for search, without telling authors exactly how they have to tag.
  They don't even have to remove the tag info - they can put it in summaries or author's notes or even at the beginning of chapter text, if they run out of space. They just can't make all those tags part of the site-wide search-and-filter functions anymore.
  
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amorenbalde Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:44PM UTC

bless! 75 is still too many tbh. i automatically scroll over when i see 30 or so tags
e: to add to that, any way we can filter out stories that have more than X amount of chapters? I already filter out unfinished stories, as well as stories of a certain length of words, but the megafic chapter/ tag abuse is hard to filter out at times.

Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:52PM UTC

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1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:55PM UTC
  
  I would love to be able to search by chapter count. THAT is something that I think should be implemented. This issue is all about how hard it is to get good search results, right? Maybe instead of making everyone cut down their tags, they could add new ways to filter the fics. Say I don't want to read a long fic with a ton of tags but I also don't want a one-shot, maybe I could search for fics with 5-50 chapters. That's an idea. Cutting down on tags just makes it harder to find fics because you don't know what the author will be forced to cut to come into compliance with this new rule.
  
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2. 1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:40PM UTC
    
    You can apply upper and lower wordcount limits to the search. Personally I find those more relevant anyway, because chapter count can be thrown off by the fact that one author might have 1k word chapters, while another has 10k word chapters. The same fic from each might be 30 chapters from the former and 3 from the latter, but they're both 30k words, so they'll show up in a search for fics with 25k-35k words.
    
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  2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:15PM UTC
      
      I would also like to be able to search by chapter count because sometimes I can remember how many chapters a fic has but not how many words
      
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    2. 1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:20PM UTC
        
        Fair enough, though that's a different use case than the one I was responding to. (looking for a medium-length fic) It wouldn't be terribly useful to my searching habits, but neither is the completion status filter.
        
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  3. MintGreen_and_NeonPink Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:47PM UTC
    
    This is actually possible already, you need to put "expected_number_of_chapters: X" in the "search within results" field. The only downside this has is that it doesn't allow you (not that I am aware of, at least) to search within a certain bracket - for example, fics with 5 to 10 chapters. You will only get one specific number
    
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  4. 1. i_dwell_in_darkness Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:03PM UTC
      
      You can't do a range within a single search term, but you can combine greater than and less than to approximate it. For example, the search expected_number_of_chapters:>10 expected_number_of_chapters:<15 will give you all fics with an expected chapter count between 10 and 15 chapters. (The space between the search terms acts as an AND.)
      As far as I know, this advanced search is only possible for fics with expected number of chapters—either projected (e.g. 5/14) or complete (e.g. 11/11). I don't know that it's possible to search by current number of chapters, which doesn't help with /? fics, but it's a start.
      
      Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:03PM UTC
      
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    2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:17PM UTC
        
        Still a good system, right?
        
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DebraHicks Fri 27 Aug 2021 03:48PM UTC

Great idea!

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1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:14PM UTC
  
  I agree. Great idea but execution could've been better. I wish I had a bit of notice to inform readers of what tags I would have to cut so I wasn't trying to post a new chapter and scrambling to find a way to save it so I could hit 'cancel' and then go 'Edit Tags'. The idea is great, I get that Wall of Tags is an issue but it seems 'in the coming days' amounted to 'tomorrow'. Notice would have been nice
  
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2. 1. DebraHicks Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:25PM UTC
    
    I wonder if they were trying to avoid people adding too many tags at the last minute?
    
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  2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:44PM UTC
      
      Maybe, I think it's people commenting on their work under additional tags. For example, I read a crack fic where they used all the, for lack of a better word, official tags denoting a crack fic like Crack and Crack Treated Seriously and then added something about how the Author Wasn't On Crack. Additionally, insomniacs will tag their works as like, 3 AM posting my old friend. That sorta thing is what creates the Wall of Tags problem that became too big to ignore. It's excessive tagging and they're trying to get it under control, especially for people with disabilities who have to listen to all the tags being read by their screen-readers
      
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    2. 1. DebraHicks Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:50PM UTC
        
        Those kind of tags are a lot of the problem. Also, the "let's put every possible kink / pairing / character" in the tags to get more hits. Even if the character is only mentioned on page 200 for two lines. I think a lot of over tagging is a bid for attention.
        
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      2. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:46PM UTC
        
        Over tagging, yeah. A tag counter would help us writers get it all under 75
        
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        DebraHicks Sat 28 Aug 2021 12:43AM UTC
        
        I'm safe. I think the most tags I've ever had was a dozen.
        
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        Blue_Hood Sat 28 Aug 2021 12:54AM UTC
        
        Yeah. According to the part of the announcement explaining why it's 75, you're in the 99.5% majority. I think those numbers are BS, that they just made up the .5% are over 75 tags to justify the 75 tag limit but maybe that's just me.
        
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        (4 more comments in this thread)
blitzen Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:15PM UTC

Thank you for the update! Hope this keeps tags manageable for wranglers and for future tagging-infrastructure updates

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1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:16PM UTC
  
  I hope for future tagging infrastructure updates as well. Limiting tags will make specific fics harder to find because it forces authors to cut tags without warning so I'd love to see how they counter that issue and just, fingers crossed, that they do
  
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Jackaloki Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:39PM UTC

Still not objecting to the decision that's been made here, and I might even try paring my own tags down a bit. But to those of you saying things like "it should be less" and "I skip if I see over so many tags"--I understand. When I see tags that go down half a page on a laptop screen, I get fatigue too.
Which made me think--one of the problems may be that while those of us who post works tend to do so from our laptops, a lot of people have started reading on phones. 75 tags are going to take up a lot more space on a phone screen, as opposed to a laptop or tablet. Still going to stand by my position of "75 is a good number, and paring it down farther should be up to the author"--but I think it would definitely be a good idea to have an "expand" button for tags on the mobile site, and maybe even for descriptions.

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1. luxurias Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:52PM UTC
  
  There is one already, built into the site.
  go here: https://archiveofourown.org/users/Jackaloki/preferences (or for anyone else, just put your username in place of Jackaloki, or go up to the top of the page and click/hover over the Hi, [username]! and the last option is "My Preferences")
  and in the display section there is an option "Hide additional tags (you can still choose to show them)."
  selecting that will create a button you have to click to view the tags. It unfortunately does not help with screen readers or logged out/accountless users, but it does make scrolling past easier. you can check the warnings, rating, characters, ships, and summary and if that all sounds good, you can then click to view the tags before selecting the work to read.
  
  Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:54PM UTC
  
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2. 1. Jackaloki Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:26PM UTC
    
    I don't normally read on the mobile site, so for me it's not an issue. I was just wondering if possibly, the mobile site was one of the reasons some people think more than 20 or 30 tags is a problem.
    What you're suggesting probably is a good option for users of the mobile site, but I'm guessing that "hide additional tags" hides *all* additional tags (and only additional tags, not character or relationship tags) without regard to how many there are (also, new/casual users of the site probably won't think to do it, and like you said, it doesn't help the accountless). What I'm proposing is that by default, tag lists *only on the mobile site* be truncated after 30 tags or so, with the ability to expand the list for individual fics by hitting a "see more" button.
    It's just an idea, though, and one that would surely annoy *someone* for *some reason* were it to be implemented ^_^;;
    
    Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:36PM UTC
    
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  2. 1. luxurias Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:50PM UTC
      
      Neither do I. But I wanted to put the option and information out there for anyone stumbling across this thread who might find it useful as a stopgap measure.
      It does hide all of them, but it doesn't require a page reload (hence why it's not helpful for screen readers) to view them. By far not a perfect solution, but it could save a few mobile users some time and frustration when browsing. This way they're only seeing the tags on the fics that pique their curiosity, instead of every single fic.
      It probably would annoy someone, but as long as it's an optional toggle, it shouldn't cause too much of a ruckus.
      
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3. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:41PM UTC
  
  I agree with the expand button or split the tags in two when we post the fic. Have a visible tags option (the ones that will be seen when you're scrolling through a list) and a searchable tags option (tags that will be there in the expanded form and readers can use to narrow results even thought the tag won't show when you're just scrolling). This was a suggestion a fellow author of mine made when we discussed this on Discord. We think that limiting tags isn't the answer but rather limiting the visibility of tags. Maybe check 75 tags to prioritize them. I'm glad to see someone agrees with me
  
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4. 1. luxurias Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:52PM UTC
    
    A hidden/meta tags section would be nice, but it would only work if it won't be picked up by screen readers when the user hasn't expanded them.
    
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  2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:01PM UTC
      
      Yeah, I think that goes with the tags being invisible when scrolling through a list of fics
      
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  3. Jackaloki Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:08PM UTC
    
    Not saying your point of view isn't valid too, but I would like to point out that I wasn't actually objecting to the 75 tag limit--I was objecting to the idea that 75 is still too many.
    
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  4. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:04PM UTC
      
      Yeah. I don't like hearing how we should be grateful there giving us so many when their algorithm says we only need 11-17. That only adds fuel to the fire of my frustration
      
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    2. 1. Jackaloki Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:24PM UTC
        
        Personally, I'm still grateful to have so many, but 75 tags is more than enough for my work. I do understand your frustration though, since obviously your fic is different than mine and you've determined you need more.
        And now, I should really get back to writing the fic I was working on. Honestly, getting involved in this thread at all was probably just a way to procrastinate ^_^;;
        
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      2. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:36PM UTC
        
        I hear that about the procrastination. Tag counter, that's what we need to make this a much smoother transition for those of us with lots of tags that need cutting.
        
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knight7272 Fri 27 Aug 2021 04:53PM UTC

Yeah will you guys being changing the Jesse Mc Cree character tag given he's being renamed in the wake of the stuff with Blizzard?

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1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:23PM UTC
  
  A) I'm pretty sure that's a question for the volunteer tag wranglers.
  B) That's kinda problematic for all the fics already tagged with the name. I'd expect the new name to get added to the synonyms list instead.
  
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2. 1. knight7272 Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:35PM UTC
    
    Yeah
    
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  2. Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:46PM UTC
    
    My guess is that they will simply update all the tags containing the old name with the new one on the back-end of the site. That would be a far easier fix over making an entirely new tag and hoping that people swap it out on their own.
    Of course, this would not change the name appearing in the content of the fic itself, but at least the tagging system would accurately reflect the new name.
    
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  3. 1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:52PM UTC
      
      If they're not forcing over-tagged fics to trim tags unless they update, I doubt they're going to go editing the tags people already have. Yes, the guy Jesse was named after might be a terrible person, but there's all sorts of terrible people already present in both fiction and in RPF, so that's not really a valid cause to go do something that is effectively censorship of people's existing works. Adding a syn-tag to make the search function recognize that they're the same character is enough to make the tagging system continue functioning, without unilaterally changing their tags.
      
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    2. 1. Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:58PM UTC
        
        I mean, the tags themselves would remain the exact same as only the name within the tag would change (EX: if you originally tagged something with "Bottom!McCree" your fic would be tagged "Bottom!NEWNAME"). I wouldn't call that censorship so much as a necessary update based on canon accuracy which already happens when characters who used aliases get their actual identities revealed such as Sombra whose tag was updated from Sombra to Sombra (Olivia Colomar) after her name was leaked.
        
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      2. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:05PM UTC
        
        You have a point, though in line with the Sombra example, I'd expect the update to be from "Jesse McCree" to "Jesse McCree(NEWNAME)". If nothing else it's helpful to the reader to know that the name they should be expecting in the body of the work is the old name not the new one.
        
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        Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:08PM UTC
        
        I could see them doing that as a way to avoid confusing people who are unaware of the change. In any case, I think an update would be easier to implement rather than attempting to make a new tag (especially since new tags wouldn't cover fics that have been orphaned, abandoned, etc).
        
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        simonlorden Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:47PM UTC
        
        For the record, nothing tag wranglers do can actually change the tag that appears /on your work/. They can change the tag that appears in the filter (and that the tags on your work redirect to), but they cannot change the tag you used. So, your own fic wouldn't suddenly say "Bottom!NEWNAME". Even if the filterable tag changes, you'll be able to tag Jesse McCree as you did until now.
        (Source: I'm a tag wrangler, but I have nothing to do with Overwatch so I have no idea what's going to happen to the tag in this particular case, please don't ask me about it.)
        
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        (4 more comments in this thread)
        
        Elf (Elf_Herself) Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:00PM UTC
        
        The will definitely NOT be renaming tags on fics. They'll syn the new name in the system, and the new name may even become the canonical and the older one will be synned to it. But editing the text of the tags themselves is always a user thing.
        Wranglers can't change the tags on your works.
        
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        Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:02PM UTC
        
        This was already corrected by a tag-wrangler. See above.
        
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Ceo_of_Komayuki Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:18PM UTC

thank you 😭
I've read a lot of comments and while there's a handful of people complaining about it, most people seem to be happy!
i wish it was possible to come to a conclusion everyone's happy with, but that's basically impossible....
and 75 tags is A LOT, the overwhelming majority of works, including longfics, will not need more than that
and the fics that do can probably be split up into a series, or have some tags removed anyway... so this should help a lot!

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1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:36PM UTC
  
  I notice you have 3 fics to my 131 so you're less affected by this than I am, you're writer but you don't write a lot. I have a fic that has over 90 chapters, nearly 110K words, and encompasses 8 fandoms. If I cut all my relationship tags, remove all but 2 of my fandom tags and cut my remaining tags in half, will that make my fic more searchable or less? I believe that makes it less searchable and thus impedes people who wish to find my fic. If I had been given some notice prior to this change then I could've told my readers what tags to look for if they want to find my fic in the future but I didn't have notice so now, I can either cut the tags to add to the story or put the story on hiatus and hope a better solution can be found, hope the people who gave me no notice will hear me and my fellow avid writers.
  That is my opinion, I am sorry if it comes off as rude but I am very frustrated by the fact that I had no idea this was happening until I went to update a fic and it wouldn't even let me save my new chapter as draft while I cut the tags down to bring my story into compliance with this. If nothing else, I wish I had been able to save as draft or sent me to edit tags and let me post when that was done. This system could've been better implemented and I don't like seeing people who aren't affected by it say how great of a system it is. From what I've seen, most of the people singing the systems' praises aren't the ones who can't update their most popular fic because they have too many tags and have to quickly find a way to save the chapter they just painstakingly wrote out so all their hardwork doesn't go down the drain. Sorry if this seems like an attack, it's nothing personal
  
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2. 1. Slybrarian Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:57PM UTC
    
    You're making the assumption that someone who writes many fics is more important than someone who writes fewer, when this has an impact on readers as well and it's a highly beneficial one. Cutting out a bunch of relationship tags and splitting your huge 'collection' fics up really would make them more findable because then people searching for specific characters or tags would not be confronted with massive fics that are mostly irrelevant to the search.
    Also, people looking for your fic in particular can subscribe to you. The tag system does not exist to allow people to watch particular authors.
    
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  2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:58PM UTC
      
      Sorry about that. I got frustrated by how I found out and kinda went off the deep end, does not help that I had friends on Discord egging me on. I think people with more fics will have more work to do trimming the tags is what I actually meant, sorry for going off the deep end there
      
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  3. Ceo_of_Komayuki Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:21PM UTC
    
    Heyyyy don't assume i don't write a lot just because i don't have many posted 😭 im new to this game, and filling an empty tag with 2k word oneshots I'm actually proud of is harder than it looks
    But I would say that splitting up oneshot collection fics makes it MUCH easier to find the oneshots themselves.
    Oftentimes i search for a rarepair i like, and then end up seeing tons of oneshot collections instead. This discourages me from reading the oneshots because i don't want to have to click on the collection and check every chapter for my ship. And I know I'm not alone in this.
    And if you split then up you have more fics to your name!
    If it were me I'd probably post the oneshots seperately and then put them in a series or collection to keep things organized. That way people can find the specific oneshot they want, but are also encouraged to read the others too!
    
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  4. 1. Ceo_of_Komayuki Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:27PM UTC
      
      Also, I've skipped many a fic before because i couldn't get through all the tags @_@ it's so hard to read them sometimes, I'd rather just keep scrolling
      so i think having less tags in some cases can be beneficial!
      (also, i actually have *4* fics to my name 😤 one's under another pseud for organisation purposes)
      
      Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:28PM UTC
      
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    2. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:13PM UTC
      
      Sorry about the assumption. I was really angry seeing a bunch of people saying stuff like "about time" when they had 0 works to their screen name.
      
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    3. 1. aceofsorrow Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:08PM UTC
        
        The people with zero works to their screen name are readers, they are the people who are trying to use the tags to find works to read. Surely their views matter?
        
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      2. askye Sat 28 Aug 2021 12:58AM UTC
        
        There are lots of people who use AO3 and who use it more often or not as often as others. Some write, some don't, some have written stuff but not in a long time, etc. But also people have different ways they do things and different needs and preferences.
        I read something from here almost every day and I primarily use my phone, this means that long lists of tags means that I have to scroll through lots of screens to get to summaries or past a story and a lot of times the tags are filled with things that are there for flavor or tags that are synonymous with each other so they are redundant or list of characters that are mentioned, and it turns out they are mentioned once and very briefly.
        Some people , like me, don't see the need to tag every single character no matter how briefly mentioned, while others think it's important. Some people think it's important to tag every possible variation of an action or trope or whatever to make sure all the bases are covered. Or people use tagging to summarize or sell their story instead of just using the summary for that.
        There is no way that Ao3 is going to be able to please everyone.
        And then there are the very real issues of accessibility and the limits of screen readers and how that effects people's ability to understand and enjoy stories.
        For me I find it hard to read through a Wall of Tags, especially on my phone it just all starts looking the same and I can't even pick out information i think is relevant for all things that are going on. I mean people #tag like #this. Or they , will , Tag Things like, thisssss, because?? Plotbunniess!!, CAFFEINE!! --or whatever and that is just.. On my desktop I use some extensions to help make things easier for me on the desktop but that doesn't help on my phone. My brain just stops being able to process the information because it's too much.
        What is really frustrating for me is when people put things that could be in the summary (and easier to read. at least easier for me to read) int the tags and that information isn't in the summary and since it's very specific things that are tags that can't be filtered on and probably won't be anyone else using those tags.
        
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      3. Blue_Hood Sat 28 Aug 2021 02:55AM UTC
        
        I'm also frustrated by tagging instead of summarizing but I think there are other ways to moderate tags and that this system could've been better implemented with a visible tag counter to help trim tags
        
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  5. Ceo_of_Komayuki Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:36PM UTC
    
    Sorry for making another seperate reply, but i just glanced at the fic you were talking about and right away a lot of your fandom tags can (presumably) be removed without affecting your searchability. Since Marvel is a very big fandom, it's safe to assume that tag wranglers have already dealt with most of the fandom tags and therefore all of them are probably nested under the Marvel Cinematic Universe tag, meaning that readers searching for one of those fandoms will be able to see your work in that tag automatically
    (idk for sure tho, so don't take my word as gospel)
    
    Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:36PM UTC
    
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  6. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:52PM UTC
      
      Thanks for the suggestion and I'm sorry for going off on you. I discovered the rule change when I went to update a fic and it wouldn't let me add a new chapter until I cut down the tags. Every one of those 94 chapters were written directly on AO3 so I am not looking forward to wrangling the tags. Aside from X-Men, Marvel Movies all fall under the umbrella of Marvel Cinematic Universe but TV shows like Inhumans and the Defenders don't. This is going to be a challenge but now that I see that Wall of Tags impedes accessibility, I guess I'll have to figure it out. I wish we had a tag counter that we could look at to see how many tags we have to make it easier to trim them down to size. Sorry again about making assumptions and going off on you, I was just really frustrated by how I found out and figured I'd make some noise to try to change things to maybe favor the author perspective.
      
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    2. 1. Ceo_of_Komayuki Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:58PM UTC
        
        Oh no no , don't worry about it, i found it kinda funny actually
        I agree with the tag counter thing! That'd be really useful, and it can get really hard to count tags, so it'd be nice to be able to track that
        One solution i saw someone mention in the comments was to open a Google doc, turn on the number list (1., 2., that thing) and then paste your tags into the doc. Apparently they all end up on different lines! Not sure about that though, I've got to double check it
        
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      2. Ceo_of_Komayuki Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:02PM UTC
        
        I verified it! It does work!
        Well, to a degree. The first space was empty when I pasted it in, and the last one was too, making it look like i had two tags more than I did
        But it's better than nothing, that's for sure
        Hopefully they give as an actual built-in tag counter soon
        
        Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:05PM UTC
        
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        Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:27PM UTC
        
        I may be way off here but I think there's already a tag counter telling the site how many tags we have so it stops us from adding to fics with too many tags or posting a fic with more than 75. I just wish we could see the counter, if it is there
        
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        Ceo_of_Komayuki Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:19PM UTC
        
        yeah, that's how it normally works
        I do know how to code a bit, and it isn't that hard to implement something like that (though its probably harder than i think it is in a situation like this)
        You can make it so that every time you add a tag, it adds +1 to a counter, and then you find a way to display it
        Where you display it is moreso the problem, but you could probably put it right under the big "Tags" in the box and it'd look fine...
        Then again, I don't work on the website at all, so I'm just using my past experience with coding rather than saying this would be easy to implement on AO3 for sure
        
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        Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:40PM UTC
        
        It'd need to be changed to count as you go instead of when you hit post which is what I'm told it does right now.
        
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      3. unobtainable Sun 29 Aug 2021 11:39AM UTC
        
        Hey, there is also a big umbrella Marvel tag (https://archiveofourown.org/tags/Marvel) that seems to cover everything, not just MCU :)
        
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Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:25PM UTC

I think that this system could have been better implemented. Perhaps if you made this announcement and asked us for feedback before you put the system into effect. I have been discussing this with my fellow authors and we have come to the conclusion that this system will force us to cut our longer works into series, at the cost of quality. I would have liked to be able to inform my readers who have bookmarked/subscribed to my fics of any changes I needed to make prior to this system going into effect for a smoother transition from fic to series in the cases of long fics that cannot be brought under 75 tags. My fellow writers and myself have a few ideas for alternatives that would still achieve the goal.
One suggestion we have come up with is having more tag categories, perhaps add a trigger category that is either exempt or subject to a separate limit to cut back on the warnings in the additional tags. We also believe that giving each category its own limit will achieve the aim without reducing the accuracy of the tags.
Given that the main issue is fics with too many tags impeding search results, we believe that having to prioritize tags so only 75 appear but all tags contribute to search results would serve readers and writers better than being forced to cut down on tags and only keep 75.
Longer fics are going to need/warrant more tags. Perhaps if the tag limit was proportional to the fic length then you could improve search results without affecting the quality of the tags

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1. Slybrarian Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:52PM UTC
  
  Your suggestions don't work. Having tags beyond 75 not be visible would help people on screen readers, but it would still break search results. Ditto for allowing more tags on long fics. The worst offenders are long fics (which are often collections rather than fics) with massive walls of characters and even fandoms, which are almost always completely irrelevant to what readers are searching for. It's been a problem from day one where people will tag characters or ships that barely appear, and it's particularly bad when that gets combined with other tags. If I search "A/B" and "Enemies to Lovers", I should not primarily get results where there's a one-paragraph mention of A/B and an entirely different pairing is the Enemies to Lovers. Some mixed results are inevitable but as it stands right now you can readily get entire pages of irrelevant results, many of which won't even be for the right fandom.
  Breaking up the limit by category has the same problem as above but also breaks screen readers. Creating a trigger category would be a nightmare because people can barely agree on what fits under the archive-required warnings, much less what deserves a separate 'trigger' tag.
  
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2. 1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:02PM UTC
    
    Even with unlimited trigger tags it would still be impossible to fully tag triggers, because there's just so many. To borrow an example from someone else in this comments section a few pages ago, Does a fluffy slice-of-life fic need a trigger warning for a visit to the zoo because some people are triggered by big cats? FUCK NO.
    
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  2. 1. Zeelian Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:27PM UTC
      
      There wouldn't need to be a consensus on it, what to tag would still be up to each author.
      A separate Trigger/Content Warning category would allow us to move tags like for instance Implied/Referenced BadStuff, Past BadStuff or Suicide/Attempted Suicide out of the Additional Tags category.
      
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    2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:46PM UTC
        
        Exactly. Things that the Author can be reasonably aware is a trigger
        
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      2. CodenameCarrot Sat 28 Aug 2021 08:54PM UTC
        
        I have a disabled kid. I’m ok with reading about child prodigies, or babies, but when I hit a story with well written parenting (any fandom) and a kid his age being a kid and doing kid things I usually end up sobbing. I absolutely do not expect people to warn for this, but yeah, triggers are many and diverse.
        
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        Blue_Hood Sat 28 Aug 2021 11:49PM UTC
        
        How would someone tag for that?
        
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        CodenameCarrot Sun 29 Aug 2021 01:43AM UTC
        
        They wouldn’t. They don’t. And I don’t expect them to.
        If I know I’m in a bad place I’ll avoid anything that’s tagged or mentions holidays (because it might have visiting family) kid fic, parenting, teacher AUs etc. it’s just that this is absolutely a trigger for me and I absolutely do not think it’s something that should be included as a warning/if there were to be warnings outside of the count.
        But I’m old. Two kids and a mortgage old … I’m glad that the staff and volunteers are taking steps to prevent works with an excessive number of tags from fouling the archive, and I get they had to pick a limit to do so. There are a some things being suggested here - from the work I’ve done setting up various enterprise software - that sound like real nightmares to implement.
        
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        Blue_Hood Sun 29 Aug 2021 01:55AM UTC
        
        Ok
        
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    3. Terrie Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:29PM UTC
      
      I have a friend who is triggered by those cat clocks with the shifting eyes. I'm all for content information, especially commonly upsetting content, but I'm not a fan of calling it "trigger warnings" because it sets up an impossible standard.
      
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  3. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:00PM UTC
    
    How does breaking up the limit by category break screen readers? You'd only see the limit when you're posting stories
    
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3. butterflyslinky Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:06PM UTC
  
  This change was announced several days ago, after many complaints from the userbase. That was the feedback they were using to make the decision, and it would be hard to get feedback on something that hadn't gone into effect yet. I suspect that as time goes on and they see how the change works, adjustments will be made to make everything run smoother.
  Also, I don't see how cutting a longer work into a series would decrease the quality of the work. If anything, I find long works being split into series preferable since I have good stopping points and a series can be bookmarked or subscribed to just as easily as a single fic.
  
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4. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:03PM UTC
    
    Guess I need to keep up with the news better. It seemed sudden because I found out when I was trying to update a fic and had to scramble to save my work off-site so I could trim the tags. That made me frustrated, which turned to anger. Sorry about going off on everyone. I wish that when I'm trimming tags, there was some kind of counter to tell me how many tags I have so I can see when that number exceeds the limit
    
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  2. 1. Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:09PM UTC
      
      A way to streamline the process might be to screenshot all your current fic descriptions with tags and then list each one out in an excel sheet to pair down the tags you really want to keep (it's easier to count with excel since you would just need to use one tag per cell). It's not a perfect solution, but it's easier than manual counting!
      
      Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:10PM UTC
      
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    2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:25PM UTC
        
        Trial and error takes less work. I think there's already a tag counter telling the site when we're over the limit that could maybe be made visible to us to help get everyone in compliance.
        
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    3. Ceo_of_Komayuki Sun 29 Aug 2021 11:42PM UTC
      
      Hey, it's me again!
      I think I mentioned this to you earlier, but opening a Google doc, turning on numbered list, and pasting your tags in there gives you a numbered list of all your tags! Fandom tags seem to be a bit weird with this, so you have to seperate them manually, but the rest work perfectly!
      When you delete a tag from your work, you can just go back into the Google doc and delete the corresponding line. The list will shift to accommodate the new amount of tags.
      
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    4. 1. Blue_Hood Mon 30 Aug 2021 12:29AM UTC
        
        Thanks for the tip, I guess
        
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5. shinykari (meinterrupted) Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:12PM UTC
  
  You obviously have not been paying attention to the wider fandom world, because this came up for discussion in many spaces--including on AO3's subreddit--earlier this year. It is a direct response to a fic titled Sexytimes With WangXian, which, at the time of its removal from AO3, had 4400 tags. (Please note, that is NOT a typo, it had over FOUR THOUSAND TAGS.) In addition to being annoying for most people, this was found to literally break the site on some user's browsers, as well as be extremely difficult for users who use adaptive technologies to read AO3 (e.g. screenreaders and Braille notetakers). Other users picked up on this vulnerability in AO3's code, and began deliberately overtagging fics (some with the entire text of works in the tags).
  This limit was necessary to keep AO3 running optimally, and is still quite generous. There is no other site out there that allows unlimited tagging--not Tumblr, not Twitter, not Wattpad, and definitely not Fanfiction.Net. The majority of users here and on Twitter are thrilled with the limit, and I assure you, if you take a little bit of time, you'll be able to easily pare down your own tags to within the extremely generous limit.
  If you feel so strongly about the tag limit, AO3's code is open source, so you are able to set up your own archive that has no tag limits.
  
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6. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:05PM UTC
    
    Yeah, I've been getting that a lot. It seemed sudden because I was trying to post something when AO3 wouldn't let me post or save as draft because I had an unspecified number of tags exceeding the 75 limit. Sorry I went off the deep end but that was probably the worst way to find out about this.
    
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7. idrilka Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:14PM UTC
  
  Longer fics are going to need/warrant more tags. Perhaps if the tag limit was proportional to the fic length then you could improve search results without affecting the quality of the tags
  Historically, this has not been the case. According to this data analysis, the majority of works with excess tags are below 25k.
  
  Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:15PM UTC
  
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8. 1. Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:29PM UTC
    
    This lines up with my general experience on the site which is that drabble/short oneshot collections tend to be the biggest culprits for tag abuse. There might be 20 chapters in the fic, but when they're all under 1k in length and there are 10 tags per fandom...well you're gonna see a LOT of tags real fucking fast for comparatively little content. If these authors split their fics into multiple entries based around specific fandoms or pairings, their work will be a lot easier to find or exclude and readers will be able to get a better sense of what the actual collection is really focused on prior to clicking into the title.
    My general rule of thumb for tagging fics of all sizes is to only tag content that takes up at least 1/4 of the story's runtime (such as characters, relationships, basic tropes, etc) and then of course to include all major triggers/CWs. If there's space, then maybe some fun joke tags or meme fodder for spice, but never enough to distract from the more important tags that readers will be looking out for.
    
    Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:41PM UTC
    
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  2. 1. Zeelian Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:25PM UTC
      
      Main issue I'm having with the implementation is Trigger/Content Warnings eating up a lot of the allowed triggers when fics grow in size.
      That's why I suggest making a separate category for those that's not counted toward the limit to let us properly warn readers without having to worry about tag count.
      
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    2. 1. Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:31PM UTC
        
        Ok, but then the larger/broader triggers should be tagged and while the smaller ones are listed out in the notes for the first chapter. A fic's primary tags should serve as an overall umbrella to warn people of the existence of sensitive content rather than go into every specific type of trauma that a person can have.
        If I as a reader click on something tagged for "Abuse", I'm going in with the assumption of "this will have material that can potentially trigger me" before we even get to the fic's actual content. Using the notes section to clarify/specify any trigger that falls under the umbrella of "Abuse" still gives readers an appropriate amount of warning as well as the option to exit immediately should one of their major triggers present itself.
        
        Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:45PM UTC
        
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      2. Zeelian Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:01PM UTC
        
        Warning tags commonly separate between current acts (ie stuff that you read about actively happening, often with a bit more details), implied/referenced acts (usually brief mentions with few or no details) and past acts (which also tend to not be very detailed).
        Being able to collect those into their own category that doesn't affect the tag count would help keep the amount of Additional Tags down.
        Personally I feel it should be done anyway so you don't have to scour through the list of Additional Tags to see if there are any warning ones.
        I currently have 15 tags that could be considered general Trigger/Content Warning tags and 3 that are fandom specific content warnings.
        
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        Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:12PM UTC
        
        It would affect the overall tag count, just not for additional tags specifically so it would still leave us with the accessibility issue already mentioned multiple times. Tagging for triggers is already very extensive in fanfic compared to literally all other forms of media which generally keep things as broad and vague as "graphic violence" and "contains sexual content" so I think asking people to only tag the broader categories and make a small list of more specific issues within the fic proper isn't exactly a hardship on the part of the reader or writer.
        
        Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:24PM UTC
        
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        Zeelian Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:38PM UTC
        
        The benefit to more detailed warning tags is the ability to add them to the exclusion filter.
        For instance, I'm fine with sexual content, including more graphic/extreme stuff, but I prefer to filter out some specific things like humiliation as far as possible and it's nice when it's been tagged so it can be filtered out without having to open the work and check notes to see if it's included.
        
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        Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:47PM UTC
        
        I get that, but there is not going to be a perfect system. You only lose a few seconds of your time if you click into a fic and see your trigger listed in the notes rather than the tags while someone who depends on screenreaders is actually genuinely inconvenienced.
        Also, triggers have never been the tag bloaters so let's not act like that's the real issue at hand. It's always been tumblr-style convo tags, fandom memes, and unnecessary character/pairing tags. Like looking at your MCU fic, there are 8 tags that are not character, relationship, or trigger relevant that I would immediately cut and several can be alluded to in the summary context.
        Tagging should also not be the only metric by which a person chooses to filter their fics. Summaries and notes exist for a reason and will overall give a lot more context than a tag. This limit is the best compromise that allows for a decent amount of tagging while not screwing over people who depend on tech/software to read.
        
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        Zeelian Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:58PM UTC
        
        Having to dig through 50 chapters worth of chapter/author notes to locate stuff is pretty annoying though.
        I have been doing plenty of mucking about with the tags since they sometimes behave in really wonky ways.
        
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        Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:10PM UTC
        
        That's why I suggested all the additional/specific triggers be listed in the notes for the very first chapter. That way there is no slogging/searching for the reader, it's all right there for them.
        
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      3. kayromantic Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:25PM UTC
        
        The thing is all this is doing is setting a limit which means if writer gets close to the limit they are going to have to prioritize the tags they think are most important. It is not dictating how the writer chooses to use those tags. Again this will only be an issue for a small proportion of fics as even most longer works and ones with darker or more controversial elements that are meticulously and specifically tagged don’t come close to the 75 tag limit for the vast majority of writers (longfic or not) this will be a non-issue. There is no limit that will work for everyone and also address the issue that AO3 is trying to resolve.
        And just generally the idea that one should be able to exclude every possible thing they might object to so they don’t have to come across it ever is sort of impossible. And also fics that have several dark triggers in the tags should also suggest to any potential reader the tone and risk of further triggers even if they aren’t specifically tagged as such.
        
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  3. Zeelian Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:31PM UTC
    
    You are confusing with how many tags are actually being used by shorter/smaller works and how larger/longer works could need more tags to be properly tagged (especially if the author puts content/trigger warnings in the tags).
    
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  4. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:46PM UTC
    
    I did not know that
    
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  5. Nightcandle Sat 28 Aug 2021 10:56AM UTC
    
    Thank you for this link! <3
    This data analysis is very interesting and informative
    
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9. grommile Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:51PM UTC
  
  As a writer: Your proposals sound really neat.
  As a person who works in a technical field and sympathises with other people who work in technical fields: Your proposals sound like a lot more work, not only to implement, but also to keep working smoothly. They also sound like they'd make a much bigger mess when they don't work smoothly.
  As a reader of this news post and its comments section: It has been pointed out at great length that even the vast majority of long fics don't need 75 tags.
  To take the particular example of your thematically linked one-shot collection, the only reason it needs so many tags is because you structured it in a way that isn't tag-search-friendly in the first place.
  I understand why you're upset. You have had a lot of work rather abruptly dropped in your lap, and it's caused you some acute inconvenience.
  But my experience of technical fields – including technical fields where the "customers" should know better! – leaves me entirely confident that if they'd announced this six months in advance with reminders at three months and one month, something very much like this comment thread would still have happened when the change went live.
  
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10. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:24PM UTC
    
    Yeah, I went off the deep end and then I read a comment pointing out how this is an accessibility issue that calmed me down. Since you work in the technical field, can I ask you some sorta technical questions?
    When AO3 set the limit at 75, do you think they added a tag counter to prevent posting fics with more than 75 tags? I want to know if it's reasonable to ask for a tag counter to help me trim the tags on my long fics or if that would be way too much work. I'm sitting here thinking that there's already a tag counter that's counting our tags and telling us when we have too many but we just can't see it so we gotta go through trial and error to get in compliance. Am I right to think that?
    
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  2. 1. grommile Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:07PM UTC
      
      Currently, their server checks your tag count after you click "Preview", "Save as draft", or "Post". If you're over the limit, it sends you back to the create work / edit tags / whatever page with a message telling you to remove some tags.
      They could update the Create Work, Edit Tags, etc. pages to add an in-browser check, the same way they already have in-browser checks for "do you have at least ten characters in the body of your chapter?" and "have you set a work title?", but it's a separate piece of work.
      Hopefully it's one they'll do soon.
      
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    2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:38PM UTC
        
        Yeah I hope so too
        
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11. amberquartz Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:08PM UTC
  
  Out of curiosity, how do you think a trigger section would differ from the pre-existing Archive Warnings (which do not affect the 75 tag limit). I understand this section does not include every single trigger out there, but considering how many different things can possibly be triggers, realistically it can't cover all triggers, the same way it is near impossible to warn for every potential trigger out there.
  Just here for open discussion, not to attack what you're saying or anything!
  
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12. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:33PM UTC
    
    To be honest, this suggestion was not mine but was actually made by Zeelian on Discord (they have the same screen name here). They figured that a lot of tags are actually trigger warnings and thought they should be a separate category to cut down on the tags. These would just be major TWs.
    
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  2. Zeelian Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:42PM UTC
    
    The pre-existing Archive Warnings is extremely limited, it's just 6 fixed options, and two of those are "Don't use warnings" and "No warnings apply".
    The fixed options to warn for are:
    Graphic Depictions Of Violence
    Major Character Death
    Rape/Non-Con
    Underage
    A proper Trigger/Content Warnings category would give us a place other than Additional Tags to place more specific warnings like Implied/Referenced BadStuff, Past BadStuff, Suicide related things (including attempts or suicidal thoughts/tendencies), various mental health warnings like PTSD/Panic attacks, sexual content warnings like for instance BDSM/Kinks/Dub-con related stuff or language related warnings like the use of various slurs or excessive cursing.
    I know you can't warn for every possible trigger out there since it's very personal, like there are people with extreme arachnophobia who react to just reading the word Spider.
    But it would allow us authors to add at least major/common ones without eating our tag count.
    About 15 of my tags on my currently active work are Trigger/Content Warning related.
    
    Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:45PM UTC
    
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  3. 1. grommile Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:00PM UTC
      
      I think the challenge of making a "triggers" category that counts separately from the main limit is that unless you have a strongly defined policy, and effective enforcement thereof (by your already overstretched volunteers), regarding what authors are allowed to put in it, it just devolves to "Additional Tags 2: The Taggening".
      
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    2. amberquartz Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:55PM UTC
      
      Unless there is some guideline as to what constitutes a trigger, this is essentially Additional Tags with a different label. Not to mention, what some people might consider a trigger may be something someone else is searching for. Maybe someone wants a fic about Ron Weasley interacting with spiders! That makes the use of these tags no different than what already exists as the Additional Tags section. For it to be different it would have to have some sort of guideline, and I think that sounds more like what already exists as the Archive Warnings.
      I absolutely can understand where you're coming from though, and that this all comes from a good place!
      
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13. Zeelian Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:26PM UTC
  
  I do agree that some sort of limit is needed to control the sometimes out of control tagging, but the implementation could definitely be smoother (and in some areas, less restrictive).
  The current implementation causes some issues for larger works, especially crossover works with multiple fandoms and a large number of relevant characters/relationships as well works with a lot of Trigger/Content Warnings.
  A few suggestions for a smoother/less crippling implementation:
  1: Add a separate Trigger/Content Warning category.
  Ie a separate category for major/common warning tags like Suicide related stuff, Implied/Referenced BadStuff, Past BadStuff, as well as the various Mental Health Issue & Kink/Sexual Content warnings that many include in the tags to allow people to filter those out.
  2: Limit how many tags are displayed without limiting the actual number of tags.
  This could be done in a few ways:
  A: Splitting each tag category into Displayed tags & Hidden tags where Displayed Tags is limited and the hidden tags are still recognised by filters/searches.
  Maybe with the option to display the hidden ones like the Archive Warnings.
  B: Only display the first X tags in each category (but all remain searchable and can be displayed when needed by clicking/expanding).
  This would need to be combined with an easier way to rearrange the order of tags (which really would be nice anyway).
  C: Have checkboxes for which tags to display/hide next to the tags allowing a limited number of boxes to be checked (but I feel this would be very clunky).
  
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14. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:41PM UTC
    
    Yeah, we need to figure out what would work best for all of us and won't be too much work for the admins. I think a tag counter would help with issues we're seeing in trimming tags and maybe at a later date once things have settled down and emotions aren't running high, they can ask us for feedback. That way we can have a calm discussion about it and maybe come up with a compromise. We need them to see the problems that simply cutting tags cause, just give it time and let those problems spring up. The Wall of Tags didn't happen overnight, the suggestions won't be taken seriously until we can point to the problem and give good examples. Just hang in there, Zee
    
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  2. 1. Zeelian Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:43PM UTC
      
      Yeah, seeing how many tags we currently have without having to manually count them would be nice with the new limit.
      
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    2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 09:44PM UTC
        
        Yeah. Tag counter is what I call a compromise to see how effective this new system really is
        
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Malcoholic Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:37PM UTC

Ultimately this change is a good compromise between writer and reader. Remember that there's no solution that will make every person 100% happy and that all changes to the Archive must serve the interests of the vast majority of its userbase/content.
The 75 limit still allows for a good amount of tagging that can be further elaborated on in the summary or notes for more specific triggers (i.e., you tag "PTSD", then specify "Family Trauma" in the notes) while still being accessible to readers who have disabilities and require reading aids.
Something to keep in mind is that AO3 already does SO MUCH more than the vast majority of similar hosting sites. This is one of the most extensive tagging systems on the internet and you'll be hard-pressed to find other sites that are as organized and efficient while still allowing so much creator freedom to tag. Tags are not being removed, they are being limited and yes, that means writers (myself included) have to be choosier about what we tag, but compare that to FF.N where you get 4 character tags (and that's it) or Wattpad where you get screwed if you accidentally misspell someone's name. 75 only feels limiting because we were used to no limit and there would be zero argument against it if 75 had been the cap-off from the start.
A compromise means that you have to give something up in order to meet with everyone else somewhere in the middle. The experience of using the Archive goes both ways and that means that readers who want less than 75 tags need to take the L as do the writers who want more.

Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:48PM UTC

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Quonit Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:51PM UTC

Honestly good choice

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1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:44PM UTC
  
  Good choice, not great execution. I just wish they would've added a tag counter to help us writers come into compliance.
  
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SuspenseBoss Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:24PM UTC

Finally!

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1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:38PM UTC
  
  Wall of Tags that annoying? I wish they'd added a tag counter for us writers to help us trim the tags. My most popular fics are gonna be on hiatus until I can figure out which tags are most important so that might cost me some supporters.
  
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2. 1. SuspenseBoss Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:40PM UTC
    
    RIP
    
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  2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:13PM UTC
      
      Are you telling me you can't see how making the tag counter visible would be a simple fix? AO3 must have a tag counter telling the site when tags exceed 75.
      
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    2. 1. bunnymcfoo Sat 28 Aug 2021 09:58AM UTC
        
        God gave you fingers, toes, and the ability to make hash marks on a piece of scratch paper.
        
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      2. Blue_Hood Sat 28 Aug 2021 12:55PM UTC
        
        Very funny. Gonna work on converting my soulmate shorts fic into a series today, already tried trimming the tags on that one and I couldn't get it low enough. A tag counter would make things easier on me, a writer, and is apparently rather simple to implement from a technical perspective. That's all I'm saying. Sorry if I somehow offended you
        
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Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:35PM UTC

Okay, this might be a bit hypocritical since I posted a long comment about possible alternatives to the limit (and I am not going to delete that post because the ideas contained within came from talks with other writers) but now I see this could be a more serious issue than a mere annoyance. Thank FreddieDimmick for that because his reply to another post kinda opened my eyes. As a reader and a writer, I see this 75 tag limit as a bit of overkill and something that will create as many problems as it solves when it comes to searchability. However, thanks to FreddieDimmick, I see there's more to it than that. I may be both a reader and writer who is frustrated by this sudden change but do you know what else I am? I am someone who can see, or to be more clear, I am not physically blind. FreddieDimmick pointed out that Wall of Tags is an accessibility issue. A fic with too many tags is a special kind of Hell on a blind person who is using a screen-reader. I can see both sides and now I can see this isn't as black and white as it first seemed. Thank you

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1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 07:48PM UTC
  
  There's nothing hypocritical about learning something new and then changing your views as a result.
  
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2. 1. Blue_Hood Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:38PM UTC
    
    Glad you think so
    
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Tayefeth Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:41PM UTC

Seems entirely reasonable. Please stop tagging minor characters/background relationships that are mentioned it sure up for less than 1% of the fic. If I'm looking for Mr. Granby (Temeraire) fic, I'm not interested in fics where he shows up to say "Yes, sir" and then is never seen again. Please put the chatting in author's notes until/unless it's a trope mention. And please put your "500 ficlets I posted to Tumblr" collections in series, or at least group them by fandom. You'll get more kudos in total if I can give kudos for each ficlet...

Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 06:57PM UTC

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