Upcoming limit on tags per work

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2021-08-24 21:12:26 UTC

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In the coming days, we'll be rolling out a code change that limits the total number of fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags that can be added to a work. This limit of 75 tags will apply to both new and existing works, but no tags will be automatically removed from existing works.

Why place a limit on tags?

Having a limit on tags will:

help keep work blurbs to a reasonable length, improving the experience of navigating work listings, and
encourage creators to tag for the most important elements of their works, improving the quality of search results.

Why 75 tags?

We looked at all the works on the Archive and determined that:

the average number of tags per work is 17,
the most common number of tags per work is 11, and
less than 0.5% of works have more than 75 tags.

A limit of 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags per work will provide the vast majority of creators with enough space to describe the content of their works while also keeping work blurbs to a manageable size.

Why don't ratings, categories, and warnings count toward the limit?

Ratings, categories, and warnings already have limits of their own. A work can only have one rating, and the number of categories and warnings a work can have is limited by the number of options provided on the posting form.

What should I do if I notice someone's work has more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?

Nothing! Works that exceed the tag limit do not violate the Terms of Service and should not be reported to the Policy & Abuse team or the Support team.

What happens to previously posted works with more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?

Nothing! The work will keep all of its tags.

However, if the work creator wants to edit the work or add a chapter, they will have to remove some of their fandom, character, relationship, and/or additional tags before they can save their changes. (An error message will tell the creator exactly how many tags must be removed.)

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luxurias Sat 28 Aug 2021 06:10PM UTC

Just got the stats on what percentage of fics use 30-75 tags (over a half million works.) It's quite a large percentage compared to over 75 tags. Too many people would be affected by a lower limit than 75 tags.
Sure, I did a quick pass on this! First broken down by raw totals, then percentage of each word count bin with work count on the column segments. IMO, 75 is a reasonable limit. 8% of works is high, especially when it disproportionately impacts longer works. pic.twitter.com/YtPeJ1PtT2
— verity (@regretsonmain) August 28, 2021

Last Edited Sat 28 Aug 2021 06:15PM UTC

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1. DragonSoulDreams Sat 28 Aug 2021 06:37PM UTC
  
  Out of curiosity, what are the percentages for 76-80? (Just ignore me if it's a hassle, but you seem to already have the data processed.)
  
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2. 1. luxurias Sat 28 Aug 2021 06:54PM UTC
    
    I am not the one who processed it! I just asked the person who did if they could. that post leads back to the thread in question with more stat breakdowns.
    
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  2. 1. unobtainable Sun 29 Aug 2021 10:46AM UTC
      
      Thanks for the link, which in turn has a link to the data dump. Anyone obsessed with data like me will be very happy.
      
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    2. 1. luxurias Sun 29 Aug 2021 02:35PM UTC
        
        not a problem!
        
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3. Lielac Sat 28 Aug 2021 09:05PM UTC
  
  Thanks for relaying this to the comments section!
  
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4. 1. luxurias Sat 28 Aug 2021 09:07PM UTC
    
    😁👍
    
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5. Anonaraptor Sun 29 Aug 2021 12:31AM UTC
  
  lol
  
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gideongrace Sat 28 Aug 2021 07:20PM UTC

You guys are so amazing. You're doing such good work.

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StepperOfTheLongEarth Sat 28 Aug 2021 07:22PM UTC

Could you guys add in a 'tag counter' of sorts for us in the backend?
I was editing some of my fics down and I've had several instances where I wasn't sure if I had hit the limit or not until I hit 'confirm'.
Probably isn't a huge deal and I can get used to it, but it would be a nice feature so I know that I'm not guessing about the tag count.

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1. Itohan Sat 28 Aug 2021 07:29PM UTC
  
  I agree! That would be a good idea
  
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Yemi Hikari (Yemi_Hikari) Sat 28 Aug 2021 07:46PM UTC

I'm fine with the change, but then I've tried searching for new crossover content for a set of fandom that isn't written by myself only to discover that the "new" story is the same multi-fandom one-shot collection I've seen cluttering up the crossover section. I feel seventy-five tags is doable, but I'm saying this as someone who has both fix-it fic (one of which did have over seventy-five for which I removed the ones which were redundant) and who also writes one-shot collections.
I'd like to say I've never understood why people created one-shot collections which weren't thematic, but I can actually understand why when I've been accused of "spamming" in the past over on ffnet simply for adding the newest chapters I wrote as I wrote them for multiple stories in a single fandom, and this was with me writing at least 1k per chapter while taking the time to write what I wrote. It wasn't a one-shot writer who wrote multiple sorter pieces and taking the time to write what they wrote.
This said, I do have one suggestion - that there be some way for writers to know exactly how many tags they've used without having to physically count them.
One type of story I do see having a problem with is the one-shot collection aimed at taking reader requests, but it should be noted the only other way of taking requests from readers is to set up a prompt meme of gift exchange collection, and I'd argue that neither of these methods really work for writers who enjoy taking on reader request.

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1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Sat 28 Aug 2021 08:47PM UTC
  
  One-shot collections are easier to update than creating a new work from scratch every time. It means just adding tags if needed, instead of re-tagging for fandoms & characters that are already on the list. It means not having to copy author's notes about "this is my collection of ficlets from Tumblr asks" or whatever. It means not having to scroll past a large number of works on the "Works" page, because the author generally thinks of them as related, even if they're not in the same fandom.
  Different fandom collections: I see a lot of older fic collections that are "These are all my abandoned WIPs," and the fandoms are all over. Kinktober and other 30-day writing challenges - every day may be a different fandom & different keywords. "Incorrect quotes" collections from several fandoms. Tumblr asks. Kinkmeme prompt fics. And so on. There's a connection, but it may not show up in the tags.
  
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2. 1. Yemi Hikari (Yemi_Hikari) Sun 29 Aug 2021 01:16AM UTC
    
    I actually have one-shot collections of my own, so I can attest to how using a one-shot collection is easier to update. I'll even admit to having one which happens to be a thirty-day writing challenge, though it should be noted said one-shot collection is for a specific theme within a specific fandom. I also have a one-shot collection that I did for a writing challenge asking for a one-shot collection consisting of ten one-shots for a given fandom that mine was a different crossover with said fandom for each one-shot.
    Ease for the writer is great, but not when it ends up disadvantaging the reader which quite a few have - after reading the comments - noted regarding these Kinktover and 30-day writing challenges that involve multiple fandom. Sure, it means people don't have to scroll past a large number of works on the work page for a writer, but it also means they use the filter system for the works page properly either.
    
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  2. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Sun 29 Aug 2021 01:33AM UTC
      
      Thank you for reconsidering.
      It was fine when there were a few of them here and there, but it's grown to be an actual problem. Especially the multifandom ones, because every time the work is updated, it bumps to the top of the feed for every fandom in the tags.
      
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    2. 1. Yemi Hikari (Yemi_Hikari) Sun 29 Aug 2021 02:37AM UTC
        
        I'm not sure there was much for me to reconsider, given the fact I actively discourage people from creating one-shot books for contests/challenges over on Wattpad. One major difference between there and here on AO3 is the fact over there we're even more limited regarding tags.
        Would I do that collection of one-shot crossovers again?
        Probably not.
        For starters, there aren't many writing challenges out there that ask specifically for a one-shot collection comprised of ten drabbles. I also wrote said collection back in 2014 which was long before I was here on AO3 and just starting to post stuff to Wattpad, so when I wrote that one-shot collection it was categorized on ffnet as the main fandom and a misc. crossover fandom, so there was none of this posting to multiple fandom feeds.
        Even back then I would never have imagined going over the ten one-shots let alone doing longer one-shots, nor would I have imagined spending more than a day on that kind of project simply because for this type of story because - well, as you pointed out - each time the story gets updated it bumps another writer off the top spot on the feed, whether it be just in or the fandom in question.
        
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Krynior Sat 28 Aug 2021 09:02PM UTC

This is a good idea. But...
One of my stories is 80+ chapters (a full story, not a one shot collection) that contain a lot of TWs, character relationships, etc. It's 125 tags for good reason, and that's after voluntarily weeding it down when I realized it was getting cluttered a couple weeks ago. There are a few more I could cut out but I doubt it'll get down to 75 and the story is ongoing. It's too late to break it into a series, see 80+ chapters. So... ??????????
Also, am I supposed to count each individual tag as I add or delete them so my effort isn't erased by having to Submit to see how many tags I'm over limit?

Last Edited Sat 28 Aug 2021 09:11PM UTC

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1. Lielac Sat 28 Aug 2021 10:35PM UTC
  
  I suggest pasting your current tag list into a spreadsheet or something for safekeeping, and then going at it with a metaphorical hatchet.
  Also you could winnow down your tag list in the spreadsheet, and then paste the final tag list you want into AO3 (one at a time, but still less tedious than re-typing them all) and submit it then.
  
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2. 1. Krynior Sun 29 Aug 2021 01:41AM UTC
    
    A spreadsheet isn't a bad idea. I'll have to do that and see if I can get it down without leaving important stuff out. It's 150,000 words so there are a lot of tags to waffle over.
    
    Last Edited Sun 29 Aug 2021 01:43AM UTC
    
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  2. 1. butterflyslinky Sun 29 Aug 2021 02:17AM UTC
      
      Forgive advice if it's unwelcome, but think about how people will be searching for the work. What tags convey what the story is about, and what tags are warnings? Also consider if some of the tags could be moved into the chapter notes.
      Just looking at the story, you could probably cut down on a lot of the character description tags and put the really important ones into the summary, eg "Featuring Badass!Protective!Character A and Shy!Scared!Character B." Again, that's just a suggestion, feel free to ignore.
      
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    2. 1. Krynior Sun 29 Aug 2021 02:35AM UTC
        
        Thanks for the advice. I managed to weed out redundant trigger warnings and tags. From now on I'll just add them in the author notes. I need the extra tag space in case other characters become important enough to mention.
        
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      2. HeavenlySkyfarer Sun 29 Aug 2021 11:44AM UTC
        
        Imho even if a character becomes important around chapter 80, very few people looking for a fic about that particular character are going to read a fic that takes 80 chapters to get to that point, so I don't see why it would be necessary to tag for said character at all?
        
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        Krynior Sun 29 Aug 2021 05:44PM UTC
        
        Tagging for them might be relevant to the Additional Tags even if not the relationship and characters sections.
        
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  3. NotMasonPines Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:35AM UTC
    
    Pasting tags into AO3 doesn't actually have to be done one at a time if you do it from in a word processor. As long as you only copy paste per tag category and every tag is separated with a comma then you can just paste the whole batch into AO3, and typing one final comma at the end will input all the tags separately in one go. I've been using this method myself when I needed to rearrange some tags and it works.
    
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  4. 1. Lielac Sun 29 Aug 2021 04:26PM UTC
      
      That's a much better explanation of the comma thing than I was managing to come up with when I wrote my comment! Since I was struggling to explain it concisely I ended up dropping it from my comment, but I do know how to do it. The Enter and Tab keys also work (I've tested the Enter key and heard of the Tab key) to input an entire string of tags.
      
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JanetKWallace Sat 28 Aug 2021 09:19PM UTC

Well, while in fact this solves the problem with overtagging, it doesn't solve the idea that a story gets popular due tags.
There are other factors, like fandom, the taste of each one of us, but what the heck, a silly story about pregnancy and all its overused cluxhes get a tone of views (think about Harry Potter's son who's a clone of its father, or Boruto in short)
If the excess of tags annoy you, that's fine. But there is a lot of writers doing their best, and they do not get feedback at all. Have a nice day

Last Edited Sat 28 Aug 2021 09:21PM UTC

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1. Nineveh_uk Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:40AM UTC
  
  A lot of the time, excessive tagging can actively put people off fics, though. If I am searching for fics about Minor Character X, I'm far more likely to read the fic with 15 tags that makes it clear the fic is about this character, than the one with 100 tags where it is plain the author has just shoved the name in the tags hoping for eyeballs on the fic, but the character almost certainly doesn't play much of a role, given the presence of another 50 tagged characters/relationships. As lots of readers have said in comments, what attracts readers is choosing the right tags to highlight the main aspects of the fic. Many popular fic, even long fics, don't have lots of tags, because authors attract readers by tagging well. Writers maximise feedback, not by tagging that means readers click through and then back click when they realise that the fic doesn't really contain what they were looking for, or never open it at all, but by making it findable by the readers who genuinely want that specific fic.
  
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2. Tarash Sun 29 Aug 2021 03:29PM UTC
  
  "a silly story about pregnancy and all its overused cluxhes get a tone of views"
  That has nothing to do with the tags or amount of tags for the story, and more with the topic of the story.
  
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3. Saber_Wing Mon 30 Aug 2021 09:30PM UTC
  
  Everyone wants people to see and enjoy their hard work. There's nothing wrong with that.
  That being said, you should not be writing simply to get popular. If you're in a small enough fandom that feedback is rare, 200 extra tags aren't going to help you. And if you aren't getting traffic on stories in bigger fandoms, there are a lot of different variables that can factor into that.
  We are here to create, and tell stories. If you feel you cannot do that without excessive tags, you may want to rethink the way you're telling them.
  
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QueenyC10 Sat 28 Aug 2021 10:18PM UTC

To be honest, I can’t imagine thinking of 75 tags for a work no matter the length! I don’t want my readers to know every minute detail of my story! Just the major warnings!
But, when I first started posting here I followed the lead of others in the fandom I was writing in and wrote tags like them. Now I try to be less specific, but I do like a chatty tag so my readers know I’m not crazy! But my fandom is small so I can get away with it! Haha!

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maybemalapert (laconicisms) Sat 28 Aug 2021 10:22PM UTC

*leaves a kudos in this comment in lieu of an actual kudos button* Dear AO3, clearly there is a lack, I wish to leave my love on announcements WITHOUT having to type it out. /lazy
But really, keep up the good work!
♥

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Yellow_the_Writer Sat 28 Aug 2021 10:32PM UTC

This doesn't help large works that have multiple chapters. Tags warn the reader of potiential TW and can help them avoid triggers. This is NOT helpful.

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1. vanetta Sat 28 Aug 2021 11:32PM UTC
  
  Could you give an example of a multi-chapter fic with over 75 tags where all the tags are needed? Because whenever someone has complained, I usually check their stories and I've never seen one where there aren't some redundant or 'chatty' tags that could easily be deleted to bring the tag count down to 75.
  
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2. Elf (Elf_Herself) Sun 29 Aug 2021 12:54AM UTC
  
  Authors can still put those warnings in the author's notes or chapter summaries; they just won't be filterable with the site search tools.
  
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3. mockturtletale Sun 29 Aug 2021 03:37AM UTC
  
  something i find super unhelpful is when a very long / multi-chaptered work adds tags for things that happen only in individual chapters. not only does this clutter the tags but it also actively makes the process of avoiding triggers redundant when a 300k fic that includes one mention of or instance of something triggering is tagged overall with that thing. now that story is instantly excluded in my filtered search when actually it could be a great story that i really want to read that i would have been fine reading with a note / warning in the author's notes of the relevant chapter - because that's what author's notes are for.
  functionally speaking, a tag that's applied to a story should apply to the whole thing. anything specific to just one chapter should go in the notes for that chapter.
  
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4. 1. DragonSoulDreams Sun 29 Aug 2021 05:36AM UTC
    
    Or even just one piece of that chapter. AO3 allows hyperlinks within a chapter. It's more work while writing, but for a work with relatively few but severe triggers, it works just fine.
    
    <a href="#squickSkip1">click here to skip squick/trigger</a>
    squicky/triggering content.
    <a name="squickSkip1"></a>
    Later on if you need another one in the same doc
    <a href="#squickSkip2">click here to skip squick/trigger</a>
    squicky/triggering content.
    <a name="squickSkip2"></a>
    
    Last Edited Sun 29 Aug 2021 05:37AM UTC
    
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SenZen_Travers Sun 29 Aug 2021 12:49AM UTC

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I'd even go down to 50 because it already get unreadable by 30, but I'm just glad about some attempt to limit the insanity, really.

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StarFar Sun 29 Aug 2021 03:26AM UTC

It says nothing will happen to already posted works and that you will not be forced to remove tags, except that if its a work that you are still adding chapters to it does exactly that. You can't add a new chapter to a work unless you go back and delete a whole bunch of tags. I'm in a fandom with a lot of discourse and had a lot of tags on that fic so people could avoid elements that made them uncomfortable and so no one attacked me for not tagging something. Hopefully this won't be an issue but I'm still nervous about it.

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1. QueenyC10 Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:30AM UTC
  
  I understand the worry, but author’s notes are very important to me as a reader and I’m more likely to look for the thing I want to hear there, written in sentences by the author, than reading through a whole bunch of tags which can be hard to navigate!
  
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2. 1. StarFar Sun 29 Aug 2021 10:38AM UTC
    
    I just wish they'd hidden the long list of tags in the search result or put them under a "read more" style cut, so you could tag as much as you wanted for every possible trigger and not have the problem of them taking up SO much space in the search results. Seems like the best of both worlds 🤷🏽♀️ Putting them in the author's note means they can't be filtered out.
    
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  2. 1. Nightcandle Sun 29 Aug 2021 03:57PM UTC
      
      information in the notes (and summary) can still be filterd out by using the "Seach within results" field: "-word or phrase". Every work using that word or phrase in the tags, summary or notes will be filtered out that way.
      
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    2. shinykari (meinterrupted) Sun 29 Aug 2021 11:06PM UTC
      
      Putting them under a "read more" cut does not fix this issue with screen readers, braille displays, and other adaptive technologies, nor does it address the issue of long blocks of tags breaking browsers, because the HTML for "read more" still fully loads the list of tags.
      
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mrmayortheiv Sun 29 Aug 2021 04:32AM UTC

Thank God, this will make this site so much better.
I hope after a couple months, they push it even further to a limit of like 20-25.

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1. luxurias Sun 29 Aug 2021 04:49AM UTC
  
  That's not going to happen. It will have an effect on close to 1/10th of the content on the site as opposed to the 1/200th that this change effects.
  
  Last Edited Sun 29 Aug 2021 04:52AM UTC
  
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Irethseregon22 Sun 29 Aug 2021 05:18AM UTC

Ah ok, i just got this error

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Tanista Sun 29 Aug 2021 05:51AM UTC

Minimizing tags for shorter works is fine, but I'm more worried I'll lose potential new readers for my 240k longfic with this limit. I'm uncomfortable interacting on forums in general (not avoiding toxicity, just shy) to advertise my story apart from using the tags. Because the longfic is the key to my whole series it flows exactly the way I planned and I have no intention whatsoever of splitting it up retrospectively just to game the system, which also feels dishonest. I like the tagging system because of its flexibility and freedom of expression.
I also like tweaking my longfic even when it's complete, and now before even the smallest edit can be accepted I have to whittle them down. With a heavy heart I'll bite the bullet and do it, but for the record as a writer with the recently hard-earned confidence to write true longfics this new policy is not an easy one to live with.

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1. MonkeysInPants Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:41AM UTC
  
  You're probably losing more potential readers by over-tagging than you gain by having a lot tags. Many people (as evidenced in the comments) skip over works that have excessive amounts of tags simply because massive blocks of text are difficult to read.
  Looking at your long fic, many of your tags that play no role in helping readers find it:
  - Wordcount: Over #: Ao3 already counts and displays this, and has a built-in function for searching for works by Word Count.
  - Noncanonical tags: things like 'memorial service' and 'chocolate as medicine (sort of)'. If you click on those tags, you'll see: "This tag has not been marked common and can't be filtered on (yet)." That means that nobody doing tag searches will be able to find your fic based on those tags. You have a lot of tags in this category, and most of them are terms people wouldn't be searching for even if they could (like New Year's Eve).
  Additionally, you have a LOT of characters tagged. You'll notice if you browse the comments that many people get frustrated when their favorite less-popular characters are tagged in fics where those characters only have a minor role in the story. Tagging every character that appears in your story might make it appear in more searches, but those searches won't turn into readers if those people were looking for fic about that character. So take a look at your character tags and ask your self "Is this character the focus of more than one chapter?" If not, including that character tag is probably annoying more people than it's attracting.
  Event-specific tags (like 'Dancing' or 'Forehead Kisses') are also less likely to net new readers for a longfic, because when people search those tags they're looking for fics about those things, and aren't likely to be interested in reading through 200k words of that thing not happening just for it to happen a few times.
  Concise and accurate tagging is the best way to help readers find your fic. And the majority of your readers are probably going to find your story from the fandom, pairings, or characters alone. Focus your tags on the overarching themes and major popular tropes that the fic is about, rather than cataloguing the things that it contains.
  
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2. 1. Yemi Hikari (Yemi_Hikari) Sun 29 Aug 2021 08:11AM UTC
    
    I'd actually argue that 'memorial service' and 'New Year's Eve' would count as event-specific tags, but the expectation for those of us who use event-specific tags is that - no matter the length, that story will focus on that particular type of event, unless of course, the fic in question is a one-shot collection themed specifically around a specific relationship over various holidays.
    
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  2. 1. MonkeysInPants Sun 29 Aug 2021 08:51AM UTC
      
      You make a good point! Though even as an event-specific tag, 'memorial service' still isn't searchable at the moment. I'm actually kind of surprised it isn't categorized under or synned to the 'Funeral' tag, though.
      But yeah, I think it's important for writers to ask themselves "If someone was searching for THIS PARTICULAR TAG and nothing else, would they be satisfied by reading my fic?"
      
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    2. 1. amberquartz Sun 29 Aug 2021 03:15PM UTC
        
        tags that aren't marked common are still searchable, they just won't show up in the auto-fill and won't have syns. The only way for those new tags to become canonical tags is if users tag for them and wranglers take notice, so users can and should still create those tags if they want to! It may be less useful in the sense that people are less likely to search for it, but people might still search for it, and can search for it
        A great example for this is the tags Youtuber AU and Streamer AU, which aren't canonical (yet) but I tend to search for! Content tagged with these will show up when I search for it
        
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      2. MonkeysInPants Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:43PM UTC
        
        That's fair! I mostly brought it up in this case because the writer was worried about reaching potential readers, and a lot of readers are going to lean heavily on the common tags (which are common for a reason). The tags you mention seem like emergent fandom tags that are likely to be common, whereas a lot of uncommon tags don't seem likely to become common and aren't very likely to be searched for.
        Which isn't to say people shouldn't used them! A few well-chosen flavor-tags are great, and I certainly use them as a supplement to my summary. But if someone's primary concern for tagging is reader outreach, then sticking with popular tags (even the up-and-coming-but-not-yet-canonical tags) is definitely more important, particularly when too many tags often wards people off even if a tag they were searching for is hidden somewhere in there.
        
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      3. Yemi Hikari (Yemi_Hikari) Sun 29 Aug 2021 05:04PM UTC
        
        I'd rather it be a sub rather than directly synced up with the tag because a memorial service is slightly different than a funeral tag, particularly if one starts getting int cultures other than Western cultures.
        
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      4. Nightcandle Mon 30 Aug 2021 06:25PM UTC
        
        a memorial service is slightly different than a funeral
        Thank you for pointing this out, I wanted to write something similar until I read your comment :)
        
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        Yemi Hikari (Yemi_Hikari) Mon 30 Aug 2021 10:25PM UTC
        
        Welcome.
        I think many people don't realize this because in Western culture a memorial service is synonymous with a funeral as they're always held together, though this is becoming less so after COVID, which has forced people to hold memorial services long after the funeral, but in other cultures, they're considered two very different things and sometimes the memorial service will happen yearly, whereas a funeral is a one-time thing, or it's supposed to be given where fiction can take us.
        
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        Nightcandle Tue 31 Aug 2021 07:13PM UTC
        
        Even in Western culture both terms aren't synonymous.
        As far as I know it's not done generally anymore, but there are still memorial services held for special anniversaries of a beloved one's death.
        And thank you again for pointing out the differences in different cultures :). Those things are always interesting.
        
        Last Edited Tue 31 Aug 2021 07:17PM UTC
        
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  3. Tanista Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:25AM UTC
    
    Thanks for the advice. You're probably right, but I dislike doing it nevertheless just because I had change things to do some minor editing on a completed work (I'm a perfectionist at heart). I guess I thought tagging was supposed to be more for writers than readers, a means of exposing a work to as wide an audience as possible including those not familiar to the fandom. And as a reader I've found some very interesting stories by checking out long lists of tags. I can only hope people will still find my story (and find it interesting enough) even through this reduced approach.
    Nevertheless, I appreciate the advice. Take care and stay safe!
    
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  4. 1. butterflyslinky Sun 29 Aug 2021 12:39PM UTC
      
      The tags are there for both writers and readers, but they're primarily used by the reader. Getting eyes on your fic is important, but the best way to do that is to have a strong summary and use the most common applicable tags. As a reader, I generally glance through the tags to make sure none of my squicks are there, but I chose to click on a story based on the summary.
      As to your ongoing longfic, if you're 20K in, you've probably amassed a good number of regular readers already and you're more likely to pick up new readers after the fic is completed. So far into a long story, the tags start to become less relevant than the summary and word-of-mouth from your existing readers. A good story will get readers regardless of its tags.
      
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    2. MonkeysInPants Sun 29 Aug 2021 10:23PM UTC
      
      I think your new tag list is tidy and does a much better job at highlighting what your fic is about and what's uniquely interesting about it. In the end, tags will only do so much (after all, people on fanfiction.net managed to find stories they liked despite it having a barely functional search system and absolutely rudimentary categorization).
      If you're writing something people like, they will find it, and if they know other people who like that thing, they will share it, so the absolute best advice I can give on getting new readers is to just keep writing the stuff you want to and posting it. :)
      
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DrGairyuki Sun 29 Aug 2021 06:14AM UTC

Hmmm... while it is a good update and I can see why people would love it. Personally, I have mixed feelings about this update however, because of a few key reasons:
1. I can't edit or make a new chapter: One of the main thing I dislike about this update is that I can't either edit or make a new chapter of my stories if they have over 75+ tags and it's annoying because I can't do either of that without deleting the tags, which I found to be way too tedious and inconvenient for me.
2. The tag limit is too low: I found the tag limit is too low to be way too low for my own taste. I mean, I can get why 75+ would be generous. But realistically, I think over 80 to 100 tag limit would be better, probably somewhat around the 100+ range, since I think it would give the creator the better option to choose their tags but limiting them at the same time.
Personally, I prefer either if only the additional tags section had the tag limit or if the tag limit is a option that you can choose to turn on or off depending on your preference.
But those are issues that can be improved on and fixed in the future. So I hope you take this in mind. Other than the dislike I count about this update, I think it's a good update in a way to experiment to see what could be be improved on in the future.

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1. neko1998 Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:30AM UTC
  
  I agree with you wholeheartedly!
  
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2. 1. DrGairyuki Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:47AM UTC
    
    Thx
    
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3. MonkeysInPants Sun 29 Aug 2021 08:08AM UTC
  
  Please record yourself reading out loud all the tags on your fic Date Nite in a clearly enunciated voice and then play it back to yourself, and then think about how people who use screen readers can't skip through any of that when they're browsing for fics.
  Please consider that your tags for that fic consist of over 2000 characters, and that Braille readers can only display 40-80 characters at a time. That's more than 25-50 display refreshes just to browse past your single fic.
  Please think about the accessibility issues involved before you talk about how 'tedious and inconvenient' it is to delete some of your (extremely redundant) tags.
  
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4. 1. Malcoholic Sun 29 Aug 2021 08:17PM UTC
    
    Exactly this. I work in software and accessibility testing is one of our primary concerns during the design process. Sighted folks don't realize just how limited a lot of the current tech is for people with impaired vision.
    
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5. Coroniel Sun 29 Aug 2021 08:13AM UTC
  
  I went through your fics out of curiosity to see what sort of overtagging issue you're having, and no offense meant, but the usage of redundant tags is exactly the sort of issue that the new tag limit is meant to cut down. To pick just one example: Hilarious, Hilarity and Hilarity Ensues all mean the same thing and there's no reason to tag them together as AO3 already recognises them as synonyms of each other.
  I don't mean to be nitpicky and I can imagine it's rather tiring to have to prune down tags before you can update anything, but I hope you can take a better look at your additional tags and whether they're absolutely needed.
  
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6. Tarash Sun 29 Aug 2021 03:35PM UTC
  
  I'm pretty sure that for Date Nite you could easily get below the 75 tag limit if you deleted unnecessary tags like 'a whole shit ton of references' 'What was I thinking?' 'This' 'I can't believe I wrote this' 'This Is STUPID' 'but who cares?' 'i don't care' 'Oh God Yes' 'I Don't Even Know' 'Please Don't Hate Me' 'Don't Judge Me' 'Please Don't Kill Me' 'Don't Try This At Home' 'Don't Examine This Too Closely' 'Don't Judge'.
  
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7. itsjustpoopeh Mon 30 Aug 2021 03:47AM UTC
  
  you have 137 tags on a 4k word fic. this is exactly the reason for the limit. it's tag spamming and it's out of control
  
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neko1998 Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:29AM UTC

I'm sorry but this is very frustrating. I understand that tags can overwhelm readers, but I've always enjoyed this site because I can use tags as sub genres and a place to list themes. I have trouble finding the time to even update consistently because of life, and the tags help draw new readers on who are interested in those themes. I thought that the tag limit wouldn't affect me so so much. Until I realized how unfair it is to limit it to 75. I find it unreasonable because the 75 tags MUST include the fandoms/characters/relationships! That alone takes up a large chunk of tag space as someone who writes polyamorous stories and multiverses. These are many different couples and characters. If a 75 tag limit must be imposed, please limit EACH section. Not just forcing writers to limit their ideas. At least that way, I don't have to worry about my relationship tags taking away my regular tag space! Not to mention that sure, "no tags will be automatically removed from existing works" that's not very honest of you. Just to save a chapter I had to extremely trim valuable tags. Instead of allowing current stories to choose, the algorithm is not giving us a choice at all! Either the tags go, or we choose to remove them to update. Please consider this, because this is incredibly frustrating.

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1. DragonSoulDreams Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:43AM UTC
  
  So you can continue to have eight entire screens of tags for one fic when reading on mobile? A thousand words of tags on something only twenty two thousand words long.
  You're part of the reason we need this.
  
  Last Edited Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:18AM UTC
  
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2. 1. neko1998 Sun 29 Aug 2021 06:27PM UTC
    
    Thank you for sharing. Although, as I've said before, my opinion is my opinion. I don't think eight screens is a reasonable comparison either. This entire debate began unfortunately due to the MDZS fanfic with over 1000 tags. If I want to use tags for anything other than themes, then perhaps I would've used it as that author did. Please don't tell other writers who share here, and agree with my opinion that we are the same as this person. Everyone uses tags differently and I don't think we need to be ostracized because of it. Either way, thank you for sharing.
    
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  2. 1. askye Sun 29 Aug 2021 06:48PM UTC
      
      You don't think it's unreasonable to scroll through eight screens of tags?? Why does anyone need that many tags? Seriously even in the longest fics I've seen a lot of the tags are either redundant because they are synonymous, or just "chatty" things like "and so PURE" or things that could be in the summary .
      As someone who reads from my phone most of the time I find it excessive to have to scroll through 3 screens of just tags and nothing else. I have a 27" monitor and have seen some tags that take up the entire screen of my monitor. Just the additional tags and nothing else.
      Also people who use screen readers can't skip through tags so they have to listen to all of those tags.
      
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    2. 1. neko1998 Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:26PM UTC
        
        Yes I understand that. I'm not saying it's okay, but I'm saying that I don't think it's fair to limit three categories worth of tags. Just as everyone has the right to avoid reading a story, writers have the right to add tags. It may not be perfect, but I think the 75 tag limit should be revised. That's just my opinion.
        
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      2. askye Mon 30 Aug 2021 04:04AM UTC
        
        You only are allowed the number of tags that AO3 allows, it's not really a right.
        
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    3. DragonSoulDreams Sun 29 Aug 2021 06:51PM UTC
      
      Just because the council didn't bother passing any laws against fly-tipping until someone dumped nuclear waste in the park, doesn't mean that fly-tipping is okay as long as it's not radioactive.
      
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3. writeranthea Sun 29 Aug 2021 08:27AM UTC
  
  75 tags for each section would be ridiculous, all of my long stories (10+ chapters, 100k+ words) and the ones I read are fine with less than thirty/forty tags. This isn't Tumblr, go and chat in the chapter notes, that's what they're there for. Also, stories like "Lux Brumalis" are a reason why this tag limit was imposed in the first place. Just saying.
  
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4. 1. neko1998 Sun 29 Aug 2021 06:13PM UTC
    
    That's fine. Everyone had their own opinion, that's why I came to share mine. I do know of stories that use the tags inappropriately. However, I don't think it's fair of everyone, even the staff, to create a boundary that acts like a "one-size-fits-all". Yes, I enjoy using the tag feature. There's no shame in that. I am not against the idea to limit tags, but 75, and for an entire three areas are unrealistic. You can take this as you like. It's not fair to make writers choose between their ideas and updating. And FYI, I don't write one-shots. I enjoy writing longfics. I'm not sure why this matters, everyone should be able to use tags as they like. I don't use Tumblr, or chat. At least for me personally, I have not intended to use my tags for a chat. If you've seen that, then too bad. Tags can be used for anything, there's no rule saying you can't. I'm sorry that you feel that way.
    
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  2. 1. Malcoholic Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:39PM UTC
      
      You do realize that no other website allows for unlimited tagging, right? Sorry, but having a 75 limit is EXTREMELY reasonable when you compare the limit on other types of content hosting sites. The only reason this is even a debate at all is because the limit is new. If 75 had been the cap from the beginning, y'all would have adapted just fine.
      Additionally, long-fic isn't an excuse for more tags. Plenty of long-fics do without coming close to 75 and plenty of real books that top a 1000 pages (looking at you Stephen King) survive in the real world with only back-cover blurbs. As a writer, cutting to the core of your story is the BASIC courtesy you can give your readers before they click. This website is for both readers and writers which means that everyone has to compromise, both the writers like you demanding more tags and the readers who are demanding less.
      
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    2. 1. neko1998 Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:51PM UTC
        
        Yes I do understand that, but any type of story has the option to do it. Just because someone else won't doesn't mean that writers won't use tags. Real world books or not. I'm not saying that we shouldn't compromise, I just think more revisions should be implemented to fit this algorithm more. I'm sorry if it upsets people but that's my opinion. Everyone can agree to disagree. Do I think the changes will benefit readers yes. Writers. Depends. I do think the change was a good start, also useful for all readers using different platforms. As I said, this is just my opinion. I won't tolerate being labeled a certain writer just because I enjoy the tag feature. That's the last I will say on the matter. And if everyone is going to criticize my tag uses in my stories (since everyone enjoys looking for targets), then be my guest, don't just read the tags, read my stories and then give me constructive feedback.
        That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Thank you all for sharing.
        
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      2. Malcoholic Sun 29 Aug 2021 08:00PM UTC
        
        AO3 is not taking away your tag fun, it's asking you to curate it in a way that is accessible for everyone (especially people who depend on screen-readers and other software). I'm not upset by your opinion, but I am upset that so many writers like yourself are taking this as a personal attack when it's clearly something that is being implemented to maintain the integrity of the Archive.
        Also, if you're going to talk (in a public forum I might add) about how you're struggling with tags, the first thing people are going to do is take a look at your stories to test the claim that you really "need" them. So far, every writer that has made that claim has been proven to have redundant and unnecessary tags regardless of their fic length.
        I'm sorry this is so upsetting for you, but considering your other options for tagging on websites are very slim (FF.N gives you a total of 4 character tags and 2 genre tags for example), parring down your tags is the best course of action. It's unlikely that the tag limit will be upped based on the data as this is the compromise that disrupts the least amount of users while still allowing for enough tags to convey a fic's basic premise, triggers, and players involved.
        
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5. midnightstreet Sun 29 Aug 2021 08:57AM UTC
  
  Dear god, I just looked out of curiosity and...you are exactly the reason we need this limit imposed. Holy crap.
  
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6. 1. QueenyC10 Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:37AM UTC
    
    Wow! I have the skin to hide additional tags and that fic still takes up more than a page on my screen! I daren’t press ‘show additional tags’.
    Just as a reader who might like to read your story, I would be put off having to scan it all. It’s intense.
    
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  2. Ceo_of_Komayuki Sun 29 Aug 2021 03:10PM UTC
    
    I just gotta say, your profile pic fits this comment so well
    
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  3. 1. midnightstreet Mon 30 Aug 2021 12:39AM UTC
      
      I actually laughed out loud at your comment! All those years ago when I made that icon I was like 'this is expression is just...so me.'
      
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  4. Tarash Sun 29 Aug 2021 03:37PM UTC
    
    You weren't kidding! Wow, fanworks like that are confirming my suspicion that everyone complaining about needing 75+ tags is 100% wrong about that.
    
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  5. neko1998 Sun 29 Aug 2021 06:23PM UTC
    
    :) That's your opinion. Thank you for sharing.
    
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7. Lady_Douji Sun 29 Aug 2021 10:30AM UTC
  
  "What happens to previously posted works with more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?
  Nothing! The work will keep all of its tags.
  However, if the work creator wants to edit the work or add a chapter, they will have to remove some of their fandom, character, relationship, and/or additional tags before they can save their changes. (An error message will tell the creator exactly how many tags must be removed.)"
  They stated that they would not be going in and chopping off tags automatically, but authors would need to make changes when updating, thereby giving authors the ability and option to evaluate if specific tags are needed or not.
  Now you say that tags are there to draw in readers, but have you considered the possibility that too many tags drive away more readers than they pull in.
  If I'm interested in a specific character, pairing, or theme, but find its tag it buried within a wall of tags(some or most of which I'm not interested in or actively hate) My next step is going to be looking at the length of a fic and calculating the chances that there's enough of what I'm interested in to be worth going through what I'm not interested. 99.9% of the time I'm going to give the fic a pass. I have to be well and truly starved for content of my faves(characters, ships, tropes) to take that gamble. I'll find something else or go re-read an old fave that I know has what I want. And If you read through all the comments on this post you'll find that's not an uncommon attitude among readers
  Thoughtfull and accurate tags will do more to draw in more readers than just spamming any possibly applicable tag and pray it catches someone's eye.
  
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8. 1. neko1998 Sun 29 Aug 2021 06:22PM UTC
    
    I understand what you're saying. I like to believe my tags are not spamming. I also enjoy selecting specific tags for characters and relationships. That's not to say that I can't narrow them down. I just don't think that writers should be made to choose between them. I also don't think 75 for three categories is reasonable. Sure, not everyone uses tags. That's not the point. I don't want to be categorized as a spammer/chat just because I use them. Or have to follow parameters that would not work for specific story types, I use the multiverse as an example. It's fine for everyone to disagree with me, but this is my honest opinion. It's one of the reasons I enjoy using AO3.
    
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  2. 1. MonkeysInPants Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:31PM UTC
      
      "I like to believe my tags are not spamming"
      Believing something doesn't make it true.
      Take a moment to read through your entire fic page out loud. Every tag for every fic. Don't speed through it either, make sure each word is clearly enunciated. Record yourself doing this, play it back for yourself. Consider that people with screen readers can't readily skip past any of that when browsing for fics.
      
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    2. Lady_Douji Mon 30 Aug 2021 04:05AM UTC
      
      Unfortunately for you, what you like to believe is rather immaterial. If you insist on using an excessive number of tags, regardless of how necessary you believe them to be, you will be regarded as an obnoxious tag spammer. People will think this because of the impact your choices have on their ability to use and navigate Ao3 and find the fics they want to read. It has already been explained(repeatedly) throughout this comments how large numbers of tags are damaging to people's ability to use the archive.
      Tell me, why shouldn't people consider you a spammer after you've been told that your use of tags is actively harming their ability to use Ao3 and your (paraphrased ) response is "Well I enjoy my tags, so I should be able to keep using them." I mean you're outright telling people that your preferences and enjoyment are more important than their basic accessibility needs.
      Tags aren't meant for your enjoyment. They're not meant as a way for authors to show off how clever or funny they think you are with chatty tags. They're an organizational tool to let people find what they want to read, and avoid what they don't. Excessive tagging doesn't help with that, and is actively detrimental to that those organizational goals.
      
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9. Mireille Sun 29 Aug 2021 01:02PM UTC
  
  Not to mention that sure, "no tags will be automatically removed from existing works" that's not very honest of you.
  That's completely honest of them, because it's 100% true. They are not automatically removing any tags from existing works. But, as the post explains, in order to edit or update fics with 76+ tags, the extra tags will have to be removed.
  But nobody from AO3 is going to remove those tags, which is precisely what they said.
  
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10. 1. neko1998 Sun 29 Aug 2021 06:15PM UTC
    
    Yes I understand that. However, that is taken under the belief that more than 75 will remain, but not pointing out that to update, having more than 75 will mean you need to trim them anyway.
    
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  2. 1. Mireille Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:30PM UTC
      
      They explained it very clearly.
      
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    2. DragonSoulDreams Sun 29 Aug 2021 08:34PM UTC
      
      "However, if the work creator wants to edit the work or add a chapter, they will have to remove some of their fandom, character, relationship, and/or additional tags before they can save their changes. (An error message will tell the creator exactly how many tags must be removed.)" - the announcement
      "but not pointing out that to update, having more than 75 will mean you need to trim them anyway." - the tag troll
      Outright lying about the content of the announcement, when anyone reading your complaint can just scroll up and read it again to check, isn't going to garner much sympathy.
      
      Last Edited Sun 29 Aug 2021 08:35PM UTC
      
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11. bunnymcfoo Mon 30 Aug 2021 07:10AM UTC
  
  I'm sorry you're incredibly frustrated, but imagine how people who have to scroll past your wall of tags (and yes, I do mean you in particular) to find something to read feel - spoiler: it's probably incredibly frustrated.
  If I live to be a hundred, I will never understand why people feel the need to tag every single character who appears in their fic, even if it's just as a sexy lamp.
  
  Last Edited Mon 30 Aug 2021 07:11AM UTC
  
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Maid_Muichirou Sun 29 Aug 2021 07:32AM UTC

THANK YOU

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QueenyC10 Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:17AM UTC

75 tags is still so many! 🤯 there’s one in the fandom I write in that is a series of one shots about different couples from different fandoms and they’ve gotten around the 75 limit by only listing fandoms and couples mentioned. 🤦🏽♀️
I was really hoping it would encourage people to post only for that fandom and not to publish like this. 😭 I don’t want to see 300+ chapters that are not my otp or fandom!

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magpie_jie Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:32AM UTC

Thank you for this change! it will certainly make searching for fic easier! and here’s hope that it will be a growing point for fic writers, both as writers and on a personal level, as tagging is a sign of an organized mind.

Last Edited Sun 29 Aug 2021 09:51AM UTC

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rudigersmooch Sun 29 Aug 2021 02:03PM UTC

Thank you so much for implementing a tag limit! I think it's a very good idea that will improve the functionality and usability of the site, and it's definitely necessary to stop some bad players.
Personally, though, I wish the limit had been around 100 (not for my own purposes, but because I have many favorite fics that have 70+ tags) and I hope you'll consider increasing it in the future.

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