Upcoming limit on tags per work

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2021-08-24 21:12:26 UTC

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In the coming days, we'll be rolling out a code change that limits the total number of fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags that can be added to a work. This limit of 75 tags will apply to both new and existing works, but no tags will be automatically removed from existing works.

Why place a limit on tags?

Having a limit on tags will:

help keep work blurbs to a reasonable length, improving the experience of navigating work listings, and
encourage creators to tag for the most important elements of their works, improving the quality of search results.

Why 75 tags?

We looked at all the works on the Archive and determined that:

the average number of tags per work is 17,
the most common number of tags per work is 11, and
less than 0.5% of works have more than 75 tags.

A limit of 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags per work will provide the vast majority of creators with enough space to describe the content of their works while also keeping work blurbs to a manageable size.

Why don't ratings, categories, and warnings count toward the limit?

Ratings, categories, and warnings already have limits of their own. A work can only have one rating, and the number of categories and warnings a work can have is limited by the number of options provided on the posting form.

What should I do if I notice someone's work has more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?

Nothing! Works that exceed the tag limit do not violate the Terms of Service and should not be reported to the Policy & Abuse team or the Support team.

What happens to previously posted works with more than 75 total fandom, character, relationship, and additional tags?

Nothing! The work will keep all of its tags.

However, if the work creator wants to edit the work or add a chapter, they will have to remove some of their fandom, character, relationship, and/or additional tags before they can save their changes. (An error message will tell the creator exactly how many tags must be removed.)

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MissMoochy Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:15PM UTC

A smart decision. Thanks for all that you do!

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yingying Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:16PM UTC

thank god. kinda tired of seeing fics with tons of unnecessary tags lol

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Screwtrap_Daemon Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:16PM UTC

Hmm, seems dicey, but I’d personally prefer a round 80. 😒 oh well! Thanks for the update!

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1. Dragons_ampersand_Dragons Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:01AM UTC
  
  I mean, when you talk about round numbers, in many respects 75 is more of a round number than 80, since it’s three-fourths of a hundred.
  
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nephele Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:20PM UTC

Thank you!

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penandtheducks Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:23PM UTC

👏👏👏👏

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diaryofageekgirl Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:31PM UTC

A very welcome change! Thank you so much! 💙💙💙

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xkcdBlackHat Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:34PM UTC

I don't like this change, because I really liked being able to have as many tags as I wanted and not having to worry about the limit. Now that I do, I'm going to be more anxious about what I can tag, and what I'll leave out.

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1. Dragons_ampersand_Dragons Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:02AM UTC
  
  My advice would be to write out all your tags as if the limit wasn’t there, and then look to see if you’ve gone over. You probably haven’t.
  
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2. 1. xkcdBlackHat Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:20AM UTC
    
    I did count my longest fic's tag. I am over the limit by quite a few, so yeah.
    
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  2. 1. Spatz Wed 25 Aug 2021 03:23AM UTC
      
      I was curious and went to look at your fic tags to see what was up. I'm not familiar with your fandom, but it looks like you've got a number of redundant tags (i.e. tags that nest* under other tags - NaNoWriMo as well as NaNoWriMo 2020, multiple tags for OCs in addition to the canonical one), 'referenced' characters who I'm assuming don't actually take a role in the story and thus don't need tagging, plus a bunch of tags that look like your OC names, which don't really aid in navigation because they're unique to that specific story. I can see why you'd like to keep them, but perhaps it would help to look at what needs to be tagged so readers can find a story vs what can go in an author's note?
      *If you're not familiar with how metatags work, you can click on any tag, remove '/works' from the URL, and see if they're nested under another (for example). If something's nested, it will appear under a search for the metatag as well as its own specific string. Hope that's helpful!
      
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    2. Shadowlit Thu 26 Aug 2021 03:49AM UTC
      
      then you're probably gonna have the way to change the way you think about tags. the biggest difference is simply that everyone who sees your fic is also forced to see your ao3 tags, whereas with many other places (ex tumblr) it's a conscious choice to view the tags. the purpose of ao3 tags is to make your fic easier to find and easier to categorize, not to ramble about the fic itself nor to break people's browsers by putting the entire fic in the tags. the latter behavior is why this new rule exists, btw, and why everyone is celebrating this change.
      
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    3. the_gabih Thu 26 Aug 2021 10:03AM UTC
      
      One place I'd start with is OC names- they don't tend to help with archive navigation, and tend to end up more as clutter than anything else. Then you'd want to cut out any referenced characters/pairings (you can put those in the author's note if it's something you want to warn for!) That would likely help with keeping things shorter.
      
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3. Christiiiiine Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:15AM UTC
  
  i understand what you're saying bc the fact that there is a limit at all is a little bit anxiety inducing but also seventy-five tags is A LOT of tags. especially what with sexy times with wangxian practically breaking ppl's browsers, it was just so out of hand. in fact i would say that some of the best and most popular works have the least tags.
  
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4. 1. xkcdBlackHat Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:23AM UTC
    
    I also understand the issues with that fic, but I do feel like they could have made the limit higher. For example, at 100 tags. I also think this privileges shorter fics over longer ones, since ones that are longer would have more stuff and more things to be tagged for, but I could be wrong. That makes me uncomfortable as well. I think there should have been a different solution, instead of making us all only be able to have so many tags. Being able to block works, for example, would be a much better solution than this.
    
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  2. 1. amberquartz Wed 25 Aug 2021 01:23AM UTC
      
      You can already block works using site skins, although there was a newspost in April about how AO3 is working on a blocking and muting feature
      
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    2. homodachi Wed 25 Aug 2021 01:39AM UTC
      
      The thing is that tags have a specific function, which is primarily organizational. They are not supposed to be a space for jokes or author's notes or apologizing or listing every character that appears in a work, even though some people use them for that. They're supposed to work as an enhanced version of library categories and make your work searchable. They are also supposed to help readers find/fics with content that they do/do not want to see.
      Adding too many tags to your work shows that you don't know how to communicate what's actually important about your fic. Naturally, readers can't tell either, and the warning/organizational functions become moot.
      Furthermore, there are actual people who deal with making sure that similar tags are grouped together, and the more tags (especially non-standard or duplicate/similar) people use, the more work these volunteers have to do.
      99.5% of fics in this giant archive came in at or under the maximum they picked. Even fics w/75 tags make for a poor searching/browsing experience, but they tried to accommodate as many people and fics as they possibly could.
      If you're really really worried about it, I would recommend saving your tag space for the big trigger warnings and the most major characters in your fic and list the rest in an author's note.
      
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    3. 1. Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Wed 25 Aug 2021 07:49AM UTC
        
        Except I have a (very popular) fic which does have over 75 tags because I have so much I need to list out specifically so people can find what they're searching for. I don't list every character who appears in the fic, but I list every canon character who has several lines in my fic (it's not my fault Star Wars has such a ridiculously huge cast of characters), and I keep them listed there so my readers can tell who is a canon character from my multiple OCs. They're also there so that people who are fans of more obscure canon characters can search and find my fic via those character's names.
        It's a fic making fun of romantic novel tropes so those tropes are listed out individually. I can put them all under the 'tropes' metatag, but that's just not how readers search and block things. If they're looking for or wishing to avoid a specific trope, now they just have to either ban all 'tropes' or roll the dice that my fic does or doesn't have the trope they're looking for. The same goes for my ace, aro, trans, poly, non-binary character tags. I can consolidate them all under 'lgbtqa characters' or similar, but if I do that, anyone looking for a specific identity is no longer going to know if my fic includes it. Putting the rest of the tags in an author's note in the fic doesn't work because now it's not in the search system so if I do some of the consolidation, now they can't search for those specific things.
        While there's more general warnings in my tags, others are necessary, but are also super fandom specific which means they can't be consolidated. So now if I have to add any more as I go (this fic grows lol), I'm going to have to delete actual characters or tropes or identities people are specifically searching for. The same goes for pairings, or new canon characters.
        
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      2. larenoz Wed 25 Aug 2021 07:58AM UTC
        
        As a reader, I would much rather you cut out listing all the canon characters (who I am going to assume will be there anyway) and keep the more important individual tags eg ace, aro, polyam, trans etc because those tags tell me something important about the story. Whereas the character tags don’t (especially if they are for characters who don’t play a significant role and to me, a few lines in general isn’t significant).
        
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        (8 more comments in this thread)
        
        Terrie Wed 25 Aug 2021 11:19AM UTC
        
        As someone who has gone looking for fics on obscure characters, discovering that a listed character has "several lines" and is not actually the important to the story is disappointing.
        
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        Gracerevealed Wed 25 Aug 2021 11:32AM UTC
        
        Idk, just looked at your fic. You don’t need that many tags. It’s overwhelming
        
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        sigaloenta Wed 25 Aug 2021 03:21PM UTC
        
        But you do have some redundant tags (e.g. "crack" and "crack taken seriously"; "Mandalorian" and "Mandalorian culture" and "Mandalore") plus some editorializing/unsearchable ones (e.g. "Obi-wan is 12 when this starts" "punch Qui-gon Jinn 2020", "Legends Qui-gon is a jerk", "New Mandalorians are problematic"). Just among these, if you consolidated the first group and moved the second to author's notes you would save 7 tags.
        
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        Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Wed 25 Aug 2021 06:21PM UTC
        
        Agreed on Mandalorian and Mandalorian culture. I'm less sure on Mandalore since that is a tag of a place where the action takes place, not of Mandalorians, same as the other planet names in the tags. In my mind, crack and crack taken seriously very much are two different things which the fic does both. Also, all those other editorializing ones are warnings specific to this fic and fandom. I already do remind my readers in the notes/reviews of those very things (will delete punch Qui-gon since it is redundant with legends qui-gon is a jerk). The readers don't search for them, but they do look at them to know which canon characterizations I'm going with and if that's acceptable to them (and if they're willing to wait the decade for the main pairing to start...). So that's two I can consolidate, but that's not enough to bring me under the tag limit.
        
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        (4 more comments in this thread)
        
        askye Thu 26 Aug 2021 03:15AM UTC
        
        I was curious about your tags and there's stuff in there that is more author's notes than tags like: Obi-wan is 12 when this fic started so don't expect the pairing for awhile, I'm running away to Alaska, etc.
        Those kind of chatty things take up space and it can be an issue. I read a lot on my phone and I'm often having to scroll through 2 or 3 (or more) screens full of tags for one story. And a lot of times I''m trying to find stories about a minor character and I end up with hits because pepole will tag every single character that is even briefly mentioned even if it's for 1 line in Chapter 5 of 12. That's not helpful. not that you are doing that but it's the kind of thing that is just so frustrating. Or people will tag every variation of a character's name and the ship-even if you search for the nickname and the full name and get the same results.
        
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        Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Thu 26 Aug 2021 04:51AM UTC
        
        That tag is there because the main pairing is going to be Jango Fett/Obi-wan Kenobi and if it's not there, people start shipping a 12 year old with a 21 year old. It is very much necessary for *my* mental health that my readers know that. Every other so called chatty tag such as 'Legends Qui-gon is Jerk' is a necessary warning tag. For example, there are two very different characterizations of Qui-gon if you go with Legends or Disney canon, so that tag immediately tells the knowledgeable SWs reader which characterization I'm using. It's also mentioned in author's notes, but quite frankly, it's right there in the tags so people who prefer his Disney canon characterization can immediately dip while those who also agree with the jerk characterization, now know they have found what they wanted.
        
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        askye Fri 27 Aug 2021 01:22AM UTC
        
        My browser ate my reply.
        I don't see why the Obi wan is 12 information can't be in the summary because that is the kind of information I would expect to find noted there.
        Part of my issue sit hat I find it really difficult to read lots of tags. It doesn't matter if it's on my desktop with my giant monitor or my phone. Although it's a lot harder on my phone when I often have to scroll through 1-2 screens (or sometimes 3) just of tags.
        And people will put a lot of flavor or extraneous stuff (not saying you but just something I've noticed) and then sometimes put helpful tags in the middle of that. And then I miss that.
        Or people will partly summarize their story in the tags and then not put that info in the summary and then I miss out on information.
        Plus it's just annoying to have to scroll through so many screens on my phone just to get to a summary or past as story to the next one. The other night for one story the the title/fandom info and all the tags took me 2 and a half screens to scroll through just to get to the summary. By the time I was finished scrolling through that I had no desire to read it.
        
        Also if people used tags that were more helpful instead of making free from chatty stuff it would be easier to filter for or exclude certain things. I don't like a/b/o and I've excluded almost every variation of a/b/o i can think of and still had stories show up because someone was using some freeform chatty vague way of saying it was a/b/o
        
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        the_gabih Thu 26 Aug 2021 10:04AM UTC
        
        I'd start by cutting out any minor characters- I hate, hate hate when I'm looking for fic about my minor character fave and I end up with a ton of fics where they only get a couple of lines! It's the opposite of useful for fans of obscure characters imo.
        
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        another_shingo Sat 28 Aug 2021 02:17AM UTC
        
        This.
        
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      3. Nightcandle Thu 26 Aug 2021 07:01PM UTC
        
        Thank you for this comment :)
        
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    4. Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Wed 25 Aug 2021 07:24AM UTC
      
      Agreed. 100 or 150 tags would be better. I have a work that is novel length, needs warnings and notifications for various things, has multiple pairings and I tag every canon character who has more than a few lines so that people can tell those apart from my OCs (because the Star Wars universe is ridiculously huge). I have 88 tags currently and I tend to add a few more as I add in more canon characters and/or pairings to the story. I just deleted a few, but many that remain are necessary and I'm saddened that if I unexpectedly add a few more characters or pairings before the end of the fic (which is quite likely), I can't add them to the story.
      I agree that a few of mine are redundant, but I also find that a lot of the nesting tags are so reductionist, it's hard to find the type of fic you are looking for. Like, I can delete my separate tags for aro, ace, trans, non-binary and poly characters and put it under lgtbq characters, but then anyone looking for one of those specific identities is going to have to take a risk rather than just search specifically for it. My work is parodying romance novels so it is filled with tropes - if I delete all the specific tropes tags, and just go with 'tropes' tag, everyone searching for a specific trope is going to lose out.
      I also have to add some very specific warnings to the fic every once and awhile (because Legends and Disney Star Wars canon is insane...). The next time I have to do that, I'm going to have to delete something else:(
      
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    5. 1. abstract_knight250 Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:29AM UTC
        
        I understand where you're coming from... have you considered dividing your work into story arcs and creating a series instead? There's no tag limit in a series after all and some tags may not carry over to the next arc. Just trying to help but if that's not for you then I hope you find a different work around.
        
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      2. Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Wed 25 Aug 2021 07:18PM UTC
        
        It's actually already divided that way. It was supposed to have a time skip, but I plan to stop it before the time skip then start a sequel fic. There's no real stopping point before that happens, and the fic already does have a fic for side stories. I'm thinking maybe switching all the character tags to the series tags instead is my only solution, but it's still going to cause the problem of people not being able to tell the obscure canon characters from my OCs without having to go check the canon tags (I refuse to have to list every chapter which characters are OCs and which are canon). I have literally had a reader tell me they dropped the fic (fortunately, they gave it a second chance months later) because they thought one of my canon characters was a mary sue who was going to take over the fic. That wasn't the case if they read further, but the fact that they couldn't tell because the SWs canon has a ridiculous number of obscure characters is very annoying.
        
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      3. saiditallbefore Wed 25 Aug 2021 02:44PM UTC
        
        As a fellow Star Wars fan-- please only tag the characters who have major roles in the story! If you want to clarify they're from canon, use the authors notes. It's really disappointing as a reader to search ao3 for fic about a favorite minor character and find that they only barely appear in most of the fic they're tagged in.
        
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      4. Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Wed 25 Aug 2021 06:31PM UTC
        
        Except when I don't tag them, people think they're OCs because I use so many obscure canon characters. It's a bit of a catch 22 for me. I've literally had someone tell me they stopped reading because they thought the character of Fay was a mary sue I introduced, when really, she's a legends canon character who plays a prominent roll in one part of the story, but then takes a background standing. This is the same for multiple canon characters I use. I can delete like, five or so which only have a few lines, but the other 30+ are very much involved in the story. And then I feel sorry for anyone who is a fan of say, Bolla Ropal, who has half a chapter of his pov, but doesn't show up much in the main fic. If I don't tag him, how will his fans find this rare fic that has him, even if he's not the main character?
        
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        saiditallbefore Wed 25 Aug 2021 07:34PM UTC
        
        You could say in the authors notes that X is a canon character. And tbh I'm not interested in only reading half a chapter of a longfic for my fave! That's not actually much of a focus!
        
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        Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Wed 25 Aug 2021 08:33PM UTC
        
        I don't think you get how many authors notes I'd have to add to my 80 chapter fic to cover all the canon vs OC characters in it, and I actually have told people about a lot of the obscure ones as it goes along. Star Wars canon is ridiculously huge.
        I mean, I love to see a fic where my fave boy, Tera Sinube, is the main character, but I'm super happy to just find out he is a character in a fic I'm reading (he is only the main character in 5 of all 38 uses of his tag). That half a chapter for Bolla Ropal (who only has 3 tags on the entirety of Ao3) is more attention than he gets in every other fic out there so if he was my fave, I'd rather have him tagged than never finding a fic which mentions him. Why would anyone want no works with their fave tagged over having a bunch of works, some of which are disappointing, some of which are not?
        
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        Jisa_Patryn Thu 26 Aug 2021 02:39PM UTC
        
        If you want an alternative suggestion? I wonder if it might be possible to take out some of the /Original Character tags and combine them into one "Canon Characters/Original Characters" type tag? I know that as a reader, the only thing I really want to know from the tags is if Original Characters are going to be paired with Canon Characters - which canon characters doesn't matter quite as much as the fact that it's in the fic. Then I can decide if I want to take a chance on an OC.
        I just wanted to make the suggestion because I've been reading and enjoying your fic, and I do see what you mean about most of those character tags having a genuine reason to be there. I'm sorry that this change is causing some stress to some long-fic authors, even while I know it's going to benefit my browsing experience.
        
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        Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Thu 26 Aug 2021 02:59PM UTC
        
        I appreciate that it doesn't matter to you who gets paired with OCs, but I know plenty of readers who do care, so I don't think that's the solution. Thanks for the suggestion!
        I have it below 75 now, but you're right, this has been quite stressful to deal with on a fic I write for fun, and in the middle of a busy work week. I just have to hope no more than three of the following happens: someone asks for any specific warnings to be added, a surprise pairing appears, or a yet to be introduced canon character decides to become much more important than I'd planned.
        
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    6. black_tea Wed 25 Aug 2021 07:16PM UTC
      
      75 tags is A LOT of tags. From the perspective of a reader, giant walls of tags are very difficult to read making the tags less helpful when browsing. It actually makes fics less accessible. It is true that longer fics, cross overs, and often fics with explicit material will have more, but still, 75 is A LOT of tags. The vast majority of writers on Ao3 do not exceed 75 tags and that includes a lot of folks who write long fics. There is no short fic privilege - too many tags makes it hard to browse depending on the device you are on, and again, it does not help you as a writer. I would look at this as an opportunity to figure out what tags truly represent your story and will help bring in readers. I can guarantee, if you have that many tags, they are not all necessary. Keep in mind the purpose that tags have - they are to help organize and search as well as provide relevant warnings to sensitive readers.
      
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    7. roundabout Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:41PM UTC
      
      The longest fic in the english language is over 5 million words long and has 25* tags. You don't need more tags even if theres more words.
      You can read the fic here: https://archiveofourown.org/works/7899862/chapters/18045334
      
      Last Edited Fri 27 Aug 2021 10:42PM UTC
      
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  3. honeymoons Wed 25 Aug 2021 03:15AM UTC
    
    thank you for this comment because i googled "sexy times with wangxian" and wow i just read the most entertaining story ever xD
    
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  4. 1. DragonSoulDreams Fri 27 Aug 2021 08:33PM UTC
      
      ...and now I'm curious whether you mean STwW or the metastory about STwW.
      
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    2. 1. honeymoons Sat 28 Aug 2021 04:27AM UTC
        
        reading my comment again, i realize i wasn't clear haha. i meant the story behind stww! the fanlore entry on it was enlightening, to say the least. i feel changed after learning about it lmao. i didn't know a story with that many tags existed!
        
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5. Mr_Melancholy Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:47AM UTC
  
  75 is a lot of tags. I'd say that you usually have no need to worry about the limit since you're likely not going to go over anyways.
  
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6. Beatrice_Otter Wed 25 Aug 2021 02:26AM UTC
  
  Heh. Different strokes for different folks. My reaction was to wish they'd chosen a much lower limit.
  My experience is that if a fic has more than, say, 20 tags--even if it's an extremely long fic!--the tags become pretty useless because they're listing off every single minute detail and the actual important details get swamped. For example, fic which are tagged with every single character who has a line in the fic means that I can't tell who the main characters are. If I'm searching for fic about a rare supporting character, an overtagged fic means that I have to wade through lots of fics in which they barely appear to find fics in which they actually have an important role in the story. As for chatty tumblr-style tags, a few of those can be very helpful and informative, but again, if there are too many, the important ones get lost in the sea of tags.
  This isn't even mentioning those horrible compilations where it's fifty different fics in fifty different fandoms stuffed in a trenchcoat and they should all be posted as separate stories.
  
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7. 1. xkcdBlackHat Wed 25 Aug 2021 02:37AM UTC
    
    I understand that - heck, I have the same issues with some characters I really like, but I also don't feel like AO3 should tell authors how they should tag, if that makes sense. Maybe clearer guidelines would be a better way? That would help people with what to tag or not to tag, but they could still choose otherwise if they wanted to.
    
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  2. 1. Elf (Elf_Herself) Wed 25 Aug 2021 05:10AM UTC
      
      The OTW's doing the best they can to not tell people how to tag; they're just putting limits on how many. (There are limits on how many words in a chapter or in a comment, too. Nobody's complaining about those because they've been around since the beginning.)
      This is happening because we hit a point of "some authors' choices were severely impacting how people could use the archive." So they needed limits. And any limit they came up with, was going to have some complaints - some people saying it's not enough tags, and some people saying it's still too many and all the extra tags get in the way.
      Some of the problems could be fixed by better explanations of metatags - like, if you tag for "canon-typical violence," you don't need to also tag for "violence" because you'll already show up in those searches.
      But some authors are going to have to change how they tag to keep the number of tags down. They'll need to figure out the main topics, or what they expect people to search for or want to avoid, and not tag for some content unless they split a work into multiple works.
      
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    2. 1. Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Wed 25 Aug 2021 08:31AM UTC
        
        Except consolidating to metatags actually obscures how people search for fic.
        For example, I have a very popular Star Wars fic. It's a fic making fun of romance novel tropes so those tropes are listed out individually. I can put them all under the 'tropes' metatag, but that's just not how readers search and block things. If they're looking for or wishing to avoid a specific trope, now they just have to either ban all 'tropes' or roll the dice that my fic does or doesn't have the trope they're looking for. The same goes for my ace, aro, trans, poly, non-binary character tags. I can consolidate them all under 'lgbtqa characters' or similar, but if I do that, anyone looking for a specific identity is no longer going to know if my fic includes it. Putting the rest of the tags in an author's note in the fic doesn't work because now it's not in the search system.
        The tags also aren't very intuitive. I spent ages trying to figure out why 'found family' wasn't a tag that came up when I wanted to add it to my fic, and finally had to search for it via Ao3's search and discover that it was under 'families of choice' which is not how I and many others ever think of the found family trope. If you're trying to add a tag to your fic, the suggestions don't take into account the metatag system and instead just suggest via spelling. This means I often can't figure out which tag Ao3 prefers without a lot of effort.
        
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      2. corbae Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:39PM UTC
        
        I recommend using the Tags search (https://archiveofourown.org/tags/search)! You could search for Found Family, click on the tag, and then see that it was merged with Families of Choice.
        This would also help for things like the "ace characters tag" you're using. It hasn't been merged with the canonical Asexual Character tag and isn't a canonical tag, so it won't help users find your fic in tag searches or filters. (If they do a broad search for something like "Star Wars ace" it would appear, though.)
        To expand on BeatriceOtter's point, she's suggesting that you use only the narrowest term that applies when there's a meta/sub tag relationship. She used the example of Canon-Typical Violence, which is narrower than Violence. That means all works tagged with Canon-Typical Violence will appear under the violence tag if someone does a broad search, so it would be redundant to use both tags. A relevant example from your fic would be dropping the Crack tag (meta/broader) and only using the Crack Treated Seriously tag (sub/narrower).
        
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        Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Wed 25 Aug 2021 07:06PM UTC
        
        That is what I had to do sadly, but it's strange to me since families of choice is just not a term I use in fanfic (real life yes, but fanfic no).
        To me, Asexual Character means there's only one asexual character when there are many in my fic, same with all the others, but I'm not sure why ace characters isn't merged with asexual character as a sub tag to begin with? Why should I have to remember to search for asexual rather than ace when both are super common? Maybe it's because I'm not neurotypical, but I have a hard time figuring out which terms are going to be canon and figuring out which alternate term might be canon.
        Ah, but in my mind, crack and crack treated seriously are two different things. Crack are fics which takes a weird premise and presents it humorously, while crack treated seriously may present it humorously (but also may not) and also treats the crack premise like it is a logical progression. My fic starts out crack, then turns into crack treated seriously. I can remove the crack tag, but I do search for very different fics when I search for crack vs crack treated seriously so idk.
        
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        TexasDreamer01 Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:26PM UTC
        
        Have you asked your audience how they use and perceive your tags yet, or nah? If they have preferences, then your reader base will be able to help you navigate how many tags, how complex of tags, and where the depth of detail would be best laid for them to understand your work (i.e. A/Ns vs tags vs a dedicated chapter at the beginning of each work, etc). I get the impression you're tagging your works based on your own reading preferences, which might not reflect the reality of how your audience is perceiving the same exact set of works, and can construe miscommunication between you and them.
        
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        Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:39PM UTC
        
        They do actually inform me when there's something they want tagged, but I've never polled them. I sincerely doubt I'd get a consensus considering there's 344,000 hits and 8300+ kudos. Obviously, people are finding and reading the work, and there's a silent majority who aren't going to comment or do anything other than kudos no matter what I do, so it would be a biased poll from the start. I do clarify things in either tags or author's notes if I can see a fair amount of readers are confused in reviews, but it doesn't happen that often.
        
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        TexasDreamer01 Wed 25 Aug 2021 10:55PM UTC
        
        It wouldn't entirely be biased - those who bother to respond are more emotionally invested, and they're your core, target audience, as a casual reader is just as likely to back-click on your work as click to the next chapter. It wouldn't hurt to ask, at least, instead of assuming how and why people are finding your work.
        
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        Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Thu 26 Aug 2021 05:22AM UTC
        
        If you don't think letting the 100 or so people who comment on each chapter of the fic (and let's be real, only half of those would actually answer my question), decide how I'm going to tag a fic with 1/3 of a million readers isn't biased, I don't know what to tell you (even if you just count readers as kudos, that's still less than 1% of my readers). The vocal minority shouldn't determine how my fic is tagged. And I guarantee you I have huge fans who are super emotionally invested who have never commented on the fic (there are tons of people who never comment because they don't know they're supposed to, they're shy, they have mental health reasons, they can't think of anything to say, they're busy and can only find the time to read once in a blue moon, or they prefer contacting me other ways; they are not any less fans of the fic just because they don't). I also don't need to assume how they find my fic; it's mentioned in fic recs on the web and when it's not that, the surges are because I've updated recently. It's not rocket science.
        
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        LittleMousling Mon 30 Aug 2021 04:56PM UTC
        
        One way to think about it is that 344,000 hits isn't actually 344,000 readers, especially with a chaptered fic. When someone logs in from their phone instead of their computer, or clicks through to check it out and then clicks back out, or comes back for a reread (or for ten rereads!) those will often be counted as hits. The comments are a much better picture of your known readership. Even kudos, on a chaptered fic, really doesn't tell you much; someone can kudos chapter one and never return.
        You can reasonably assume the readership is larger that the commenter base, but not by amounts as big as the hit count or even the kudos count--and also, if there's a specific question in the end notes of a new chapter, you are likely to get comments responding to that from people who read but don't comment. That's why so many blog posts end with a question: it gives people a starting point.
        
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        BitterOldFandomQueen Thu 26 Aug 2021 06:05PM UTC
        
        I’ve been reading all of your comments here, and your explanations and reasons.
        You tag too much, and are ignoring all the potential readers who are telling you that you tag too much and why it’s a problem.
        But you do you. I mean, I guarantee that you won’t lose readers by cleaning up your tags but you are definitely alienating future readers who see a big wall of tag text and nope out of it.
        What’s more important to you - readers or keeping your current tagging system? If it’s the former, you will probably get more as time goes by with a more reasonable tagging system. If it’s the latter, then l don’t know what to tell you, other than people come here to read fic, not tags.
        
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        Ariana Deralte (ArianaDeralte) Thu 26 Aug 2021 07:42PM UTC
        
        I disagree, and I am not the only one here who has this problem. Plenty of people search for fic using tons of include/exclude tags of tropes, characters, triggers, pairings they want and don't want to see. People eliminating specific tags so someone who is looking for, say, a specific identity (which this crack down on tags might cause an author to eliminate) is going to make finding fic with that specific identity difficult for me and others.
        I don't have to worry about readers. The fic is super popular and obviously the tagging is working. You acting like I'm going to see a surge of readers now that I've been forced to delete a few tags is ridiculous. I get an average of ten reviews per day and 30-40 on the days I update, certain holidays, or when someone recs the fic elsewhere. That has been constant for several months now.
        What the tags have done, according to reviews, is helped readers find stories with ace and non-binary characters, helped them know which canon characterizations I'm going with (since SW's has two), let people know their fave obscure canon SWs character was getting some attention in the fic, let them know I was dealing with fandom specific traumatic incidents, let them know if they were willing to deal with Jedi/OC. All of which was done before they had to even read beyond the fic's summary. If the fic weren't novel length and trying to be a fix it of an extraordinarily huge canon, I wouldn't be running up against these tagging issues (none of my other fics are even close to the limit because, guess what? They're not epics.), but I am. I think it's important to present the opinions of the 44,000 who are running into these issues, especially those who are having them because, like me, they conscientiously tag main/secondary characters, warnings and requested warnings, identities, pairings and tropes. We're not all running amuck here.
        
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  3. Meddalarksen Thu 26 Aug 2021 11:41PM UTC
    
    I think this undersells some of the video game fandoms, for example, where (as I saw an example given by a Dragon Age fan I'll go with that) Inquisitor/Solas, Lavellan/Solas, m!Lavellan/Solas, and f!Lavellan/Solas all mean different things, and no less than two of those are used typically per fic, which on shorter fics isn't going to be an issue but if you're working with a fic where you're doing a love triangle or multiple central/crucial pairings. A fandom with characters who come in groups, or an author who prefers a true ensemble cast is going to also add to that list extensively. So 20, when it includes fandom, ships, and character tags as well? That's more than a bit scant for even the average author, imho.
    
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  4. 1. tsukinofaerii Fri 27 Aug 2021 05:26PM UTC
      
      Poking my nose in on your example of "Inquisitor/Solas, Lavellan/Solas, m!Lavellan/Solas, and f!Lavellan/Solas" to point out that m!Lavellan/Solas and f!Lavellan/Solas are synonymous with "Lavellan/Solas" and the gendered version thereof (and also reversed pairing orders). Instead of tagging a fic with "Inquisitor/Solas, Lavellan/Solas, m!Lavellan/Solas", you could tag with just "m!Lavellan/Solas" and have it show up everywhere under Inquisitor/Solas, Lavellan/Solas AND multiple variations of m!Lavellan/Solas with only a single tag used. In smaller fandoms there might not be that sort of structure yet, but for a chonker like Dragon Age AO3 has already done a lot of the work for you.
      (Reference: https://archiveofourown.org/tags/Male%20Lavellan*s*Solas%20(Dragon%20Age))
      
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8. linokandi Wed 25 Aug 2021 06:02AM UTC
  
  if you manage to hit 75 tags that’s honestly impressive. literally the only people who i’ve seen go over 100 are oneshot compilations from multiple fandoms (which should be a series anyways) and sexy times with wangxian. stwwx was a MAJOR issue as well and if you’re reaching 75 tags, maybe consider not tagging something minor like references to media or whatever.
  
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trixkats (wheezes_and_bird_laughs) Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:35PM UTC

Finally! I get a headache going through stories with dozens of tags!

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gendzl Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:46PM UTC

THANK YOU.

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Overlord_Mordax Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:51PM UTC

while I wouldn't mind the limit being even lower, this is still a massive leap forward. Thank you so much to all the AO3 staff, I'm sure this was a difficult decision to come to.

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NotAlexHorne Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:53PM UTC

Since we're limiting tags, can the Thor fandom please have its catch-all tag back? I shouldn't have to use six of my available tags just so readers know that my fic uses all available sources.

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Cendiar Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:53PM UTC

Thanks for all your work on this, Ao3 team!

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Songlian Tue 24 Aug 2021 11:58PM UTC

It'd be nice if the limit was further reduced, but I'm just happy to have this great update at all.

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Terrie Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:02AM UTC

Good. Not every casual mention needs to be included in the tags. Important characters, relationships and themes should be there. They should tell me what I need to know to make a decision on if the story is something I do or do not want to read.

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1. another_shingo Sat 28 Aug 2021 02:26AM UTC
  
  Absolutely. People need to stop tagging side pairings and side characters. I'm tired of clicking through hundreds of fics tagged with my ship that aren't about my ship.
  
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LeftHandPath Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:06AM UTC

Good show! I'd cut it to 50 if not fewer, but this is very good even so.

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Sif (Rosae) Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:07AM UTC

Will this impact series at all? I think a 75 tag limit is pretty reasonable for most works, although I could understand how some of the longer or more complex works on the site might run into trouble with that. However, series tend to have way more tags associated with them by nature, and I would worry about not being able to add new works to series because of the tag limit.

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1. MintGreen_and_NeonPink Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:14AM UTC
  
  Hi, not a staff member or anything but someone already asked that question and the reply was that it only applies to individual works!
  
  Last Edited Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:14AM UTC
  
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2. AO3_Support (Official) Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:14AM UTC
  
  Hi, Sif:
  No, this doesn't affect either series or bookmarks: only works!
  Best,
  AO3 Support
  
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Christiiiiine Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:11AM UTC

STWWX is leaving a legacy on this site and I'm not complaining

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thispatternismine Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:15AM UTC

Finally.
Though it’s pretty shitty that you’re announcing a massive change a few days before it happens, yet you told Trolly McBitchface months ago? Really?
I actually dismissed this as nonsense at the time because 75 seemed fairly low-ish for a total number of tags considering how much you’d dragged your feet on dealing with the problem, & telling the person who was making you look like a bunch of idiots before even hinting of it to anyone else seemed bizarre.
Seriously, what the hell?

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1. anne_marisa Wed 25 Aug 2021 03:19AM UTC
  
  Maybe they were waiting until it had been coded and tested so they could provide a solid release date and definite details as to how it would work?
  
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2. 1. thispatternismine Wed 25 Aug 2021 07:32AM UTC
    
    And yet they told someone the exact number. That doesn't sound like 'wait & see'.
    And they announced the potential blocking/muting feature before knowing solid release date or definite details *twice* - once right after the initial protest (which was just an open letter shared around social media & not actually causing any site disruption as the tagspam protest did) & then another a year later speculating on what it would be like & inviting feedback.
    
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3. hellofriendsiminthedark Wed 25 Aug 2021 06:58AM UTC
  
  That's generally how change announcements work--they get announced shortly before launch, if not even after launch. Ao3 is currently in open beta, and that means that changes are constantly happening and being deployed. By signing up as a beta user, you've pretty much already acknowledged those conditions and how they may affect your UX.
  This announcement also only comes as a surprise if you weren't following along with publicly-available development logs. Which, of course, it's your right not to care what the devs are working on, but that also means you'll be blindsighted every time major changes happen. Considering only 0.5% of works have gone over the tag limit, though, this is nowhere near as massive of a change (on the user side) as other similarly quickly announced updates have been, for example comment freezing, which affected anybody who has ever commented on a work or had a work commented on.
  [AO3-6153] Limit the number of tags that can be used on works was created on March 31, 2021 and marked as a high priority issue; even then, that was only after a lot of discussion about whether this was the kind of limitation that would be in line or out of line with the Archive's vision. It was blocked by 4 other issues which needed to be resolved first, each of which had their own blocks in turn. A lot of coding and testing went into making this feature happen, both on the front-end and back-end sides. But in the meantime the staff reminded its userbase about other features that could help deal with related issues they were experiencing, which is a much more PR-responsible move than preemptively announcing changes that haven't been proven to be realistically implementable and may not even get launched in the first place. In the end, this feature actually made it out extremely quickly for what it was, and that's a testament to how important it was deemed by site staff, who wanted to do right by its userbase.
  Anybody could at any time have checked the issues board and seen that this change was coming and was actively being worked on. The Archive actively encourages people who are interested in the development of the site to get involved and to look at these perfectly transparent resources. If you would prefer longer notice of upcoming changes that may affect your UX in the future, keeping tabs on the dev logs may be of interest to you.
  
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4. 1. thispatternismine Wed 25 Aug 2021 07:41AM UTC
    
    All that time you spent typing all that & you couldn't even read my comment. They were happy to give a proper heads up, which included the exact number of tags, but only to one person. And this was a change they'd actively resisted, & that resistance got a huge amount of attention & backlash.
    And they've given two announcements of the proposed muting/blocking feature.
    But go off on a damn novel that misses the point I guess.
    
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FightItMiau Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:15AM UTC

Thank you very much for all you do, this one was a much needed update!

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Finlaena Wed 25 Aug 2021 12:16AM UTC

Thank you, omfg

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