Chapter Text
[Begin transcript]
Intro: jazzy, acoustic guitar music plays as a pastel blue background fades in. The words “Gay Girls and Goals” scrawl across the screen in big, loopy, pink cursive.
The title card fades out, and the camera cuts to two women, one white with riotous ginger hair and a face full of freckles, and one Black, with her natural hair pulled into a bun. The camera is tight just on the two of them where they sit on their usual pale pink couch, podcast microphone rigs before them. The redhead speaks first, with a big smile on her face.
Cassie: And welcome back to Gay Girls and Goals, your podcast on all major league sports news for women’s and men’s leagues, for the girls, gays, and theys! [sarcastically] Hello to all our regular viewers and probably no new people at all! I’m Cassie.
Luna: And I’m Luna! This episode goes up on Monday, November 8, 2021, so if you’re watching day of, here’s today’s games. [taps a pastel blue five by eight card against the palm of her hand] In the WNBA, the New York Liberty are hosting the Connecticut Sun, then in the PWHL the Minnesota Frost are playing the Vancouver Goldeneyes at home. In the NFL we’ve got the Broncos and the Chargers in Denver, and also the Steelers and the Ravens in Pittsburgh. Then for the NBA, the Lakers are in Oregon and the Jazz are in Miami. Which brings us to the NHL, and the San Jose Sharks are in Ottawa playing the Centaurs, and the New York Admirals are in Chicago. I think I got everyone.
Cassie: Fucking November.
Luna: Fucking November! Everybody and their mama is in season.
Cassie: But that’s not why we’re here. Today is Interview Monday —
Luna: We really have to figure out a different name for it —
Cassie: One thing at a time. Today is Interview Monday, and we are absolutely thrilled to introduce to you our two guests for the day.
[the camera cuts to a wide shot, revealing the entirety of the long pink couch, and the two men sitting at the other end of it from Luna and Cassie]
Cassie: Our first guest was his class’s number one draft pick. He is a winner of the Hart Memorial Trophy, Stanley Cup winner, multi-year All Star, former captain of Team Russia, former captain of the Boston Bears, and captain of the Ottawa Centaurs, Ilya Rozanov!
[Rozanov flashes a huge grin and joins the other three on the couch in polite applause]
Luna: And our second guest was his class’s number two draft pick. He is also a winner of the Hart Memorial Trophy, as well as a Conn Smythe winner, three-time Stanley Cup winner, multi-year All Star, 2011 Rookie of the Year, Olympic Gold Medalist, former captain of Team Canada, former captain of the Montreal Voyageurs, and player for the Ottawa Centaurs, Shane Hollander!
[Shane laughs and waves politely at nobody in particular as Ilya, Cassie, and Luna all applaud]
Luna: Holy shit. The first husbands of hockey. On our couch. In our studio. In Los Angeles.
Shane: Thank you so much for having us. We really appreciate it.
Ilya: Yes, thank you. We know it was short notice.
Luna: Okay, so I guess that brings me to our first question, because I have been absolutely dying to know. Why us? Sports journalism is a small world, and like girl I know some of the outlets you guys have turned down for interviews. But you called us! You called us. Like genuinely we are so excited and so honored, but also, what the fuck?
Ilya: Because you are for the girls, gays, and theys, obviously.
Shane: It’s because you talk about athletes as whole people, and teams as both communities and workplaces. I’ve been listening to your show for a couple of years now, and —
[Luna gets up and paces away from the couch, holding a hand over her mouth]
Cassie: Wait, what?
Shane: Of course! When the Canadian Women’s Hockey League launched, it was pretty impossible to find good consistent coverage of it, and Leah Campbell recommended your show to me. You talked about the folding of that league and the launch of the PWHL with so much respect and so much honesty. And I’ve been on board ever since. And just over the years listening to your coverage, and the way you talk about player safety in all leagues, and your support of all the players’ unions — we knew we only wanted to have this conversation once, and we felt like it makes the most sense to have it with you.
Luna: [dropping back down into her spot beside Cassie] Shane Hollander listens to our podcast.
Ilya: I also listen to it! I am an ally.
Shane: You’re bi.
Ilya: I can still be an ally to the girls and the theys, Shane.
Luna: Okay. I’m focused and professional. Shane, you said there’s a conversation you want to have, and only have it once. Can you tell us about that?
Shane: Yeah, uh. So we’re about six weeks into the season —
Cassie: Sorry to interrupt already, but I feel like we should also acknowledge that Ottawa is currently eleven and five, including a four to two win against the LA Kings last night, as we’re recording this on Sunday. This is the strongest season opener the franchise has seen in a couple of decades, and coming off making it to the second round of the Stanley Cup playoffs last year, which is incredible, so congratulations to both of you for that.
Shane: Yeah, thank you.This team has been playing some amazing hockey these past few weeks, Barrett and Boodram and Haas are all putting up incredible numbers with both goals and assists, Wyatt Hayes is basically a hockey god in that net, our rookies are all starting really strong — and the press, especially on away games, keep asking about our marriage and our personal history in the postgame interviews.
Ilya: It is annoying, yes? We want to talk about hockey, about the games, but the usual crowd in the press room seems distracted. Which is funny, because we keep getting asked if it is the rest of the team that is distracted by us. So we are here, we will lay it to rest, and we can all focus on bringing the Stanley Cup to Ottawa.
Shane: And we know some elements of our personal story are relevant news in the hockey world, and we are willing to share those elements, but we wanted to be respected as we do it, and to do it with people we respect in turn.
Luna: Okay. Wow.
Cassie: Thank you so much. I am normal and I am being normal. We are being normal professionals and what you are both saying makes sense.
Luna: Yes. Very normal. Cass and I were thinking we could just… start at the beginning. [sits up, straightens her note cards] You met in December 2008, at the World Prospect Cup, right? You were both gaining international press by then, and it wasn’t a secret that multiple NHL teams had plans to draft you early. Were you aware of each other?
Shane: Yes, I was aware of him. I’ve always been really focused on hockey, and I had a pretty good idea of who was going to be in the 2009 draft class. And then when the rosters for World Juniors were announced, coaches started talking to me about this Russian player, fast, strong, really aggressive play style, super high point total. But the way they said it to me was like I should be on the defensive? Like I should feel threatened by him, and want to beat him, because there could only be one of us who was the best. And I remember feeling really upset by that, but not in a way I knew how to talk about. Everything I heard about Ilya, every tape of his I watched, just made me want to meet him. I wanted to meet the guy who was going to be one of the best players in the world.
Ilya: I had also been told about Shane, and seen his tapes. And I hated him, or I told myself I did.
Cassie: Without ever having met him?
Ilya: Yes. For most of my life I knew only one thing about myself for sure, and it is that I am good at hockey. I had to be the best at hockey. It is… no longer a secret that my mother passed away when I was young, I have spoken about that before. And life at home was… not really easy after that. Hockey was what was going to get me out, so I had to be the best at it. And then I became the best at it, and it felt good to maintain that, to have it recognized.
Luna: You don’t have to answer this, and we can cut it, but Ilya, did you like hockey?
[pause. Shane takes Ilya’s hand]
Ilya: I did when I was small, and I grew to love it again once I got to Boston. But the years between were very difficult.
Cassie: Did you guys get a chance to talk at the 2008-2009 World Juniors?
[Shane snorts]
Ilya: Let me tell it, Hollander. You always tell it wrong. I was outside, trying to sneak a cigarette, and I remember I couldn’t get my lighter to catch —
Shane: Because you shouldn’t have been smoking—
Ilya: No, because it was fucking cold and windy and Saskatchewan in December. Calm down. Anyway, I was trying to light a fucking cigarette, minding my own business, and then this beautiful boy with these freckles just sprinkled across his face comes up to me, and does a stupid little wave like a penguin with his hand still in his pocket so he lifts up the corner of his jacket, and shakes my hand. I thought he was fucking with me.
Luna: Oh my God.
Ilya: We were fucking seventeen, who was this little businessman who wanted to shake my hand? And then he scolded me for smoking, but also complimented my playing? Very strange. Strangest, prettiest boy I had ever seen. Shane, you are so red, moy malen'kiy pomidor.
Shane: Jesus Christ.
Ilya: And then I think I scared him off by being an asshole. He went to go back inside, but then he shook my hand again. And I remember thinking, oh, he’s not arrogant. He’s nice. He’s being kind to me. Which was deeply inconvenient, so I chirped at him, something about how Russia was going to beat Canada, and he chirped back. And then Russia did beat Canada, but we already know that.
Shane: Fuck off. Anyway, then we didn’t see each other again until the draft, which was a few months later. And it was the second time Ilya beat me at something.
Ilya: Number one draft pick, baby.
Luna: What do you remember about draft day?
Shane: Standing next to Ilya with our jerseys. Seeing him across the room when we were both talking to our coaches. Being really nervous and looking away when he caught me staring.
Cassie: Sounds like you had a crush.
Shane: Looking back, I absolutely had a crush.
Luna: Ilya?
Ilya: Of course I had a crush. It was the freckles. I remember the night of the draft was the first time we had a real conversation, so there I was, thinking too much about this freckly Canadian, but also terrified to move to the United States, to Boston, to a place I’d never been, with a language I still did not really speak. I had so much I should have been worrying about, but he still crept into my brain. Very rude.
Shane: Fuck off, Rozanov. But yeah, after that we didn’t really talk. We were both at World Juniors again that year, and obviously Canada won gold —
Cassie: Can I just say it’s so fucking funny that you guys are literally beefing over the World Juniors Prospect Cup from almost twelve years ago?
Luna: Wild behavior for a rivalry that apparently was fake all along.
Ilya: I think it depends what we mean by fake. Hollander is the only player I have ever met who could keep up with me. Who it was a challenge to beat. I was intrigued by him. I wanted to beat him, I wanted to win, but I also wanted to see him move on the ice.
Shane: It was like that for me too. I had grown up always as the best hockey player, ever since mites. Then I lose World Juniors, I lose number one draft pick, and everybody is telling me I have to be this guy’s rival. I was eighteen, I didn’t know — it seemed like it was what everyone around me wanted me to really take the Montreal - Boston rivalry super personally, and Ilya was going to Boston, so I did. I was a kid, and it felt like what I was supposed to do.
Cassie: That brings up a really interesting point. Hockey is super different from the other men's pro leagues, in that hockey doesn’t recruit from colleges as much. Not never — we know Scott Hunter, for example, got drafted during his senior year of college, and has had a long and successful career —
Ilya: Yes, very long, longest ever, maybe —
Shane: Will you stop?
Cassie: But kids get tracked to pro hockey in North America super, super young. The fact that the World Juniors exists at all is a testament to that.
Luna: Yeah I remember what I was like at seventeen. The thought of an entire media campaign and brand management strategy being built around that dork is terrifying. Like I have cousins who are still that age, and I can’t imagine being like, hey kid, here’s a million-dollar contract, now please save this declining Original Six team. That’s a stupid amount of pressure. And while you’re at it, play this incredibly vicious high-contact sport when your body may not be finished growing yet.
Shane: Yeah. I look at the Cens rookies and I can’t imagine wanting that for them, or being willing to put them through it. Especially if you’re not from North America, and you don’t have a support system here.
Luna: Yeah actually — on that note, Ilya, my recollection is that Boston didn’t have any other Russian players on the roster at the time you were drafted. So did anyone ever provide you with a copy of your contract in Russian?
Ilya: No. My first agent was Russian, though, and he had connections to the KHL, and he represented other Russian NHL players in the US. He always treated me well.
Luna: That shouldn’t absolve the league or the franchise of the responsibility to present you with paperwork in your first language.
Ilya: Oh I agree.
Cassie: So you’re both eighteen, nineteen years old. You’re in these Original Six teams, neither of which have had a great few seasons in the recent past, and you’re both in the position of the franchise savior. What were those first few years like? How much of the rivalry narrative was coming from the press? How aware were you of each other, off the ice?
Shane: Well. Here’s the thing. We know that… that the speculation on the internet is that Ilya and I got together in 2017. Depending on how you define ‘got together,’ that’s not exactly accurate.
Cassie: It’s not?
Luna: Wait. Wait, wait, wait. So… when, then?
Ilya: 2010.
[Luna screams, gets up from the couch again and stalks to the wall of the studio]
Cassie: What? Are you fucking with me? Like is this a prank?
Luna: [muffled, off mic] Two thousand and ten? Ten? Are you sure?
Shane: Pretty sure, yeah.
Luna: [dives over the back of the couch to reach for her mic] Since your rookie season?
Shane and Ilya, simultaneously: Summer before.
Luna: [off mic again, pacing back and forth behind the couch] Holy shit. Holy shit, holy shit.
Cassie: Luna, sit down before you break something! You two, I know we just met and I shouldn’t be talking to you like this, but explain yourselves. Right now.
[Luna rushes back to her seat on the couch and pulls a pillow into her lap]
Ilya: So the summer before the 2010 season started, I got contacted about a sponsorship with CCM. And I was still thinking about this fucking polite Canadian from the draft, and I thought, hey, wouldn’t it be cool if we were both in the campaign, so I could see his stupid freckles again? So I reached out to CCM marketing to suggest that we incorporate Hollander.
[Luna cackles]
Cassie: Wait, that's adorable! We’ll have to find a photo from that campaign and put it up.
[A still image of eighteen-year-old Ilya Rozanov and Shane Hollander in branded CCM gear, facing off on the ice, appears on the screen. Their cheeks are still a little round with youth as they scowl at each other across the puck.]
Luna: That was you shooting your shot?
Shane: It worked.
Luna: Holy shit.
Cassie: So are you seriously telling us that you’ve been together since 2010? That you have now, as of 2021, been together for eleven years?
Shane: Not exactly. We weren’t… serious.
Ilya: We saw each other again at the 2011 All Stars, but then not for a while, outside of games. He played hard to get for the two years after that.
Shane: Even that’s an exaggeration. We texted every so often, and we both saw other people in that time. But I don’t think I was playing hard to get.
[Ilya laughs]
Luna: Okay, Ilya, it sounds like that’s definitely what you’d call it.
Ilya: It is. Shane, I was trying very, very hard to hook up with you again after the 2011 ASG, and you were not cooperating.
Shane: I didn’t think you were serious!
Ilya: Cassie, Luna, I can show you the texts and you can see just how serious —
Luna: Yes. Yes please. Please God.
[Ilya laughs but makes no move to reach for his phone]
Shane: I mean, I guess I did know you were serious. But I also knew I wasn’t ready.
Ilya: I know, malysh.
Shane: It didn’t help that the league was really pushing the rivalry narrative. It sold tickets, it sold merch. After all, it worked back in the day with Ovechkin and Crosby, so we knew that there were a lot of people really invested in us hating each other. And I can’t speak for Ilya, but for myself, I know I never hated him. He annoyed the living shit out of me, and I wanted to beat him, but it was because he was fucking good. He was so good, he is so good. Watching Ilya play hockey is a thing of beauty, truly. He thinks really quickly on its feet, he’s willing to take risks, and it genuinely makes him unpredictable. And it made me want to be better. Better in general, better than myself the day before, better than him. He’s always challenged me to be the best, and that has never, ever changed.
Ilya: That is true for me as well. It is infuriating how good Shane is at this game. Nobody plays like him, nobody studies like him. He knows what you’re going to do before you do it, because he’s watched hours of your tapes, and he’s drilled how to block you. It’s so fucking irritating. So every time I was able to beat him, to get something past him, it was a huge victory for me. It is so much more satisfying when you win against someone who really makes you fight for it, yes? And whenever I lost against Shane, it was like, okay, it is because he was able to do something I had never seen before, and if I can master it, I will be better. I needed that. And yes, it was always very fun to annoy him, but I was never able to throw him off his game. He is fascinating.
Cassie: Why do I feel like I’m going to cry?
Luna: Right? That was so beautiful, you guys.
Cassie: Do you think you could have been friends? If not for the rivalry?
Ilya: Yes, absolutely.
[Shane turns to look at him]
Cassie: You sound really sure.
Ilya: Yes. Shane, I do not know if you remember this, but the first press conference we ever did together was back at the 2011 ASG —
Shane: [quieter, with the mic almost not picking it up] I remember.
[A still image appears on the screen, of a much younger Shane and Ilya, in suits, sitting behind a table with a banner bearing the NHL All Star Game branding behind them. They both look tense.]
Ilya: Okay, so yes, we were in this press conference, and I got this question that I remember as being very complicated. I don’t know if it was actually that bad, but my English definitely was not as strong as it is now —
Shane: It was that bad. English is my first language, and I’m telling you it was that bad. It was a hypothetical with multiple clauses about how we felt about the fan response to the possibility of winning the Cup. It wouldn’t have been a fair question to ask anybody without them getting it in advance.
Ilya: Thank you, moy malen'kiy slovar'. But yes, so I get this question I don’t understand, and everyone is looking at me, and I almost started to panic, but then Shane leaned forward and just… took the question in a way that felt very natural. And I don’t know if he did this on purpose, but it felt like he was speaking very slowly, in very short sentences, so I was able to use his answer to work backwards to what the question had been.
Cassie: Were you doing it on purpose, Shane?
Shane: I mean. Yeah.
Ilya: See? So yes, if it hadn’t been for the rivalry, I would have wanted to be his friend, because he is kind. He could easily have let me… what is the phrase, like laundry?
Shane: [quietly, almost off mic] Hung you out to dry.
Ilya: Hung me out to dry, yes, let me embarrass myself, and looked good by comparison. Instead he helped me, when he didn’t have to, in a way that nobody noticed me needing help.
Luna: That’s really sweet.
Ilya: Yes, I agree. He is the sweetest. Moya malen'kaya konfetka.
Cassie: It almost sounds like nobody but you could understand what the other was going through, so the one person you could really talk to about it was kind of off limits.
Shane: It did feel like that, yeah. It was really isolating, in a way.
Luna: And also… so I’m Black, right? I’m a Black lesbian in sports journalism who covers men’s leagues. There’s not a ton of us. So your whole career, Shane, I’ve watched you get questions about what it feels like to be a representative, or a role model, or whatever. Almost just straight up asking you what it felt like to be a token, which is definitely similar to questions I’ve gotten before. During your rookie season, you were the only player of Asian ancestry in the NHL, and one of only a handful of players of color. I may be misremembering this but I think in your rookie season you were often asked what it was like to be compared to the Williams sisters in tennis, and Tiger Woods, and stuff. Can you talk about that?
Shane: It was weird. I didn’t create the problem of the lack of racial diversity in the NHL, but I was almost being asked what I was going to do to solve it. And like you’re saying, I was at the time the only Asian player in the league, which meant that by default I represented all Asians who wanted to be in the league, or even who were hockey fans.
Luna: Yeah.
Shane: I’m proud of who I am. I’m proud of my mom, and my grandparents, and that whole part of my life. But it never feels like I’m being asked about that pride when I get those questions. Instead, it feels very much like someone is saying to me, ‘We know this is uncomfortable and maybe even painful to you, but rather than doing anything to change it, we just want you to reassure us that it’s not that big of a deal.’ And it is a big deal. There should be more Asian players in the league. It’s not a lack of talent that has us so limited. It’s that we get overlooked by the league.
Luna: Has that changed over the course of your career?
Shane: Yes and no. It’s changed for me personally in that I don’t get those questions anymore. There’s also more Asian American and Asian Canadian talent on NHL rosters than ever before, and I think Asian enrollment in youth hockey is up by like 150 percent since 2018. That’s really important to me. Like I said, it’s not a lack of talent, it’s a lack of… imagination, I guess, from teams and from the league, that kept us out for so long. But we, and our Black and Hispanic and First Nations fellow players, still get to deal with being ‘players of color’ rather than just players. I never got to be just a player. If I mess up, it affects all of us.
Luna: Carter Vaughn has expressed similar ideas when we’ve had him on in the past.
Shane: Yeah. I really admire Vaughn, because he’s always been more willing to talk about this stuff, and more articulate than I feel like I’m being right now. Like when the Black Lives Matter protests were happening in 2014 and again last summer, Vaughnny was always out there, directing attention, raising money for bail funds, stuff like that.
Ilya: He had a very supportive captain and franchise behind him, remember.
Luna: Ilya makes a good point, and we’ll get to the whole Montreal thing later. But I’m also guessing that the complicated ways you’ve felt about your racial identity in this league didn’t help you in terms of your sexuality?
Shane: Yeah. It was already really clear to me that I was… an exception to something. I didn’t want to be one twice over.
Cassie: Which I guess brings us back to the 2010 of it all, which I still cannot fucking believe. Ilya, you said earlier that Shane played hard to get for two years after that 2011 All-Stars Game. What happened after two years?
Ilya: I would say that is when it became a… Shane, what is that terrible word LaPointe said the other day?
Shane: [covering his face with his hands, so the sound is muffled] Situationship.
Ilya: Yes, that. It became that.
Luna: Hold on.
Cassie: What… does that mean in this context?
Shane: It means we started seeing each other regularly but not exclusively in fall of 2013, and stayed in that pattern until spring of 2017.
Luna: Okay what the fuck? 2013?
Ilya: Yes, Luna.
Luna: Fall of 2013? Two thousand and thirteen? Ilya, you won the Stanley that season!
Ilya: Yes, I did. And it is important to us that people know that. In 2014, I became the youngest team captain in franchise history to lead the Bears to the Stanley Cup. The next two years, Hollander won the Cup for Montreal, including in 2016 when he won the Conn Smythe. We both made the playoffs in 2017. And through all of that, through every minute of it, we were together. Not exclusively, and it was difficult and painful, at times, yes, but I was in love with him when I was winning games against him, and he was in love with me when he was winning games against me.
Cassie: Holy fuck.
Luna: I need a minute. I need a goddamn minute.
[Ilya reaches behind Shane to play with his hair. Shane rests a hand on Ilya’s knee.]
Cassie: So all the highlights of your early careers, setting all these records, winning all these awards, Montreal knocking Boston out of the playoffs in 2015, Boston knocking Montreal out of wild card contention in 2017, winning the goddamn Stanley Cup, being the center of this huge rivalry narrative… the whole time?
Shane: Yes, the whole time. I have known Ilya my entire adult life. I think I may have loved him that long, too. The public has never known a version of me that has not wanted Ilya Rozanov. I am who I am because I love him. I am able to love him and compete against him, because his constant pushing me to be better is part of why I love him.
Luna: Oh my God.
Ilya: Again, we need people to understand this. The idea that Shane has ever or would ever throw a game for me is insulting. He would not be the man I love if he threw games. I also do not need anyone to throw games for me. Be serious.
Luna: Oh my God, you guys.
Ilya: Yes, you said that already.
Luna: Sorry, I’m just… Obviously nobody with a brain believes that Shane tripped in the 2021 playoff game against Ottawa. We’ve all seen that clip a million times. It was an accident. Players trip. It’s a game involving thin metal blades for shoes, and a big ice floor. Tripping happens literally all the time. But Ilya, it sounds like you might have actually broken up with him if he had tripped on purpose.
Ilya: Probably, yes.
Shane: I would have been furious with him if he hadn’t taken the puck from an opponent who tripped. The idea of either Ilya or me playing anything other than our best hockey in Game Seven of a playoff series is insulting. It was heartbreaking for me to have Montreal get knocked out. I wanted that fourth Stanley Cup. I still want it.
Ilya: And we will get it this year.
Shane: You keep fucking saying that, you’re going to jinx it.
Ilya: Is not a jinx, it is a fact. It is not a jinx to say what is true.
Luna: Sorry, I’m still processing. If I was in a situationship with a man for four years I would probably kill him and then myself. Cassie, I think I need you to take over for a minute.
Cassie: Yeah, I got you. Okay, sorry, can I ask one really personal question before we move on? When did either of you… catch feelings, I guess?
[Shane and Ilya glance at each other]
Shane: I’ll take this first. I don’t know exactly when I fell in love with him. I’ve been trying to figure it out for years. There’s this line that Jane Austen has, I think in Pride and Prejudice, that goes something like ‘I was halfway in it before I knew it had begun —’
Ilya: Mr. Intellectual —
Shane: Will you shut up? But I can tell you that I realized I was in trouble in 2014, when Boston won the Cup.
Ilya: Wait, what?
Shane: [squeezes Ilya’s knee] I was watching the final with some teammates at Hayden Pike’s house. When you lifted the Cup, before you passed it off to your team, you said something in Russian. I didn’t understand it, but I thought I caught the word ‘mama.’ And there was so much joy in your face, but I thought I saw some pain, too, just for a second. And there was nothing in that moment that I wanted more than to be there, with you, celebrating your win. So that’s how I knew I was fucked.
Ilya: [quietly, leaning away from the mic] Ty nikogda mne etogo ne govoril.
Shane: [quietly] Mne zhal'.
Ilya: No, no, is okay, just… [exhales].
Cassie: Shane speaks Russian?
Luna: Cass, focus. Do you guys need a break?
Ilya: No, we’re good. After all, it didn’t stop him from knocking me out of Cup contention the next year, and winning back-to-back Stanleys. To show off.
Shane: There it is.
Cassie: What about you, Ilya?
Ilya: Around the same time, I think. And I knew that the right thing to do was to stop seeing him, but I have never been a huge fan of doing the right thing. So I did what I thought was second best. I kept it casual, no expectations. If I acted like there were no feelings, then maybe they would fade. Because there couldn’t be feelings.
Cassie: Yeah. [glances at her own notecards] The Law for the Purpose of Protecting Children from Information Advocating a Denial of Traditional Family Values.
Ilya: Exactly. I knew who I was at that point, knew I liked men as well as women. I had known for years. But I still only had a Russian passport, so if something happened and someone found out, and I got released from my contract with Boston, I would be deported, and the Russian government would know why. People like us, me and Shane, are imprisoned or disappeared for this.
Shane: And enforcement of that law has only picked up the longer the current regime has been in power in Russia.
Cassie: And stuff like that is also really, really worth talking about when the NHL recruits from overseas markets. If the league cannot be a place where people are safe, where people have to worry about being fired and then literally fucking deported, then it’s not engaging in ethical recruiting practices.
Shane: Exactly. In a lot of ways, Ilya had much more to lose than I did if we were to… name the thing between us.
Luna: So if I could pull together a couple of different threads here, it sounds like for both of you, politically you weren’t safe, and personally you weren’t ready.
Shane: That feels fair to say, yeah.
Cassie: Wow.
Luna: Did anybody know? In all that time?
Ilya: Not exactly. I have a very good friend, a childhood friend from Russia, who knew there was somebody. But she didn’t know who, or how serious it was. Mostly because I told her it wasn’t serious. Oh, and of course, Rose Landry.
Cassie: Okay so we weren’t going to bring up Rose Landry, but you opened the door, so —
Luna: Please, please tell us about Rose Landry.
Ilya: Yes, Shane, tell them about Rose Landry.
Shane: Fuck off, Rozanov, you’re the one who set it up for us to get dinner with her last night. Dating Rose was… my very last-ditch attempt at being straight.
[Cassie bursts out laughing]
Luna: Shut up, oh my God.
Shane: We dated for a little over a month, if you could call it that. I mean, we went on dates. But Rose was the first person who really looked me in the eye and had me admit to myself that I’m gay, that I’m only attracted to men, and that I would be happier if I was honest about that. She’s one of my best friends.
Cassie: Okay, I am going to admit something about myself here. I know the internet thinks you two just got together in 2017 at the ASG, but ever since you came out, I thought it was earlier than that, and the reason is that the Boston-Montreal game in December 2016, the only game the teams played against each other while Shane was dating Rose Landry —
Shane: [covers his face with his free hand again] Oh no.
Cassie: — is, by all metrics, the single worst game of both of your careers. [flips to a new notecard with a flourish] Montreal took it, but barely, one-nothing, and that one goal was scored by Hayden Pike. Ilya had two shots on goal, no assists, and Shane had one shot on goal also with no assists, and for both of you, that’s still your career lows.
Ilya: How long did you spend thinking about this?
Cassie: Oh, no. You’re being interviewed. We’re asking the questions.
Ilya: Fair, but if your earliest guess was December 2016, you were still very far off.
Cassie: You got me there.
Shane: This is so embarrassing. But yeah, I owe a lot to Rose. She was kind to me in a moment when I really needed it.
Luna: Yeah, because you were in situationship hell.
Shane: Yep.
[laughter]
Cassie: Speaking of situationship hell, just based on the information that’s already publicly available, it seems like a lot happened in the first half of 2017.
Luna: Yeah, starting with the All Star Game in January.
Cassie: First time the two of you played on the same team — on the same line, even. What was that like? Because honestly it was incredible to watch, even if we don’t count the helmet kiss heard round the internet.
[Image of Shane and Ilya in All Stars Eastern Conference Team uniforms appears on screen. Ilya has his arms around Shane, and is pressing a kiss into the side of Shane’s helmet while Shane beams]
Shane: Oh my God.
Cassie: Well, maybe just some corners of the internet. The straights just thought it was a normal European celly, but we knew better.
Ilya: [laughs] It was the best I had ever felt playing hockey in my fucking life, until the start of this current season. Yes, All Stars is silly, it is pointless, is there for players to lose momentum going into the playoffs and advertisers to make all their money back, but I had never felt anything like playing on the same line as Shane. It was like he could read my mind. If I needed to pass, I did not have to look. I just knew he would be there. And if he had the puck and I had an opening, he got it to me before anyone knew he was even planning to. No one had ever been able to keep up with me like that. It was like we were flying.
Luna: Well goddamn.
[Shane stares at Ilya]
Cassie: Shane? Anything to add?
Shane: No, that about covers it. [clears throat, turns back to Cassie and Luna] But aside from the game itself, it was… the first really honest conversation we’d maybe ever had with each other. About us. Without going into a ton of detail, we finally told the truth about some stuff we’d been avoiding for a while, and that was… really great, but it also felt like not a lot had changed. The NHL was still the NHL. Russia was still Russia. I didn’t know what to do.
Luna: I can’t decide if that’s worse. Like, knowing you have feelings that the other person shares, but not being able to do anything with that information.
Ilya: Yes, I could not decide either.
Shane: Oh, I don’t think it was worse. I was sure about Ilya in a way I’d never felt before. I may not have known what to do, but I was ready to try to figure it out.
[pause]
Ilya: Fuck, Hollander.
Shane: Ty eto uzhe znal.
Ilya: Da, no ya ne osoznaval.… blyat’.
[another pause]
Cassie: Seriously, Shane, do you speak Russian?
Shane: I’m learning.
Ilya: He speaks Russian.
Cassie: Wow.
Luna: I can’t even get a text back. Girl fuck you.
Ilya: Do you have a podcast you are competing against? Is there another sports journalist who is as good a sports journalist as you? Try that. The competition makes it very hot.
Luna: Am I allowed to tell guests I hate them?
Cassie: No. So to bring us back on track, two weeks after the ASG, Ilya, your father passed away.
Ilya: [clears throat] Yes. I know I mentioned this earlier, but my relationship with my surviving family was not the best after my mother died. My father had been sick for a long time, so it was not a surprise that he died, but these things still impact you.
Luna: Is that the last time you went back to Russia?
Ilya: Yes, and I will not be able to go back again for the foreseeable future. But it is okay, I think. There is nothing really left for me, there.
Luna: Please correct me if I’m wrong, but… even if you decided you were done going back to Russia, it didn’t address the problem with your Russian passport, if you were to be outed in a hostile environment.
Ilya: No, that is correct. Everything really just… felt impossible in those months. So when Shane got hit…
Cassie: Yeah. Boston at Montreal, March 30th, 2017. First time Shane Hollander had to be taken off the ice by the medics because he couldn’t move under his own power.
Ilya: And it scared the shit out of me. The night it happened…
[pause. Ilya looks away.]
Shane: He had to play the rest of the game. There was no way for him to go with me in transport, or get updates on my condition, or do anything that you would need to do if your partner got hurt like that. Nobody knew what we were to each other. I honestly don’t think I could have handled it, if it had been reversed. I would have just had a panic attack on center ice.
Luna: It’s so unfair. If any other player is hurt at a home game, the wag is the first phone call, even if they’re not married. And of course there’s a history, in both the US and Canada, of queer people not being allowed near their partners in medical settings, without formal and legal recognition of their relationships. We know this is why gay marriage as a political issue emerged out of the AIDS crisis. And I’m not saying that a bad hit on the ice is the same thing, but it had to have been so lonely and so scary, Ilya.
Ilya: It was. I almost… ended it, then.
Cassie: Really?
Ilya: Yes. It was one thing when it was casual, and fun, and not serious. But if it was serious, and there was no good ending that I could see, it was going to hurt when that ending came. And I thought I had to get out before it got any worse.
[Shane lifts his hand from Ilya’s knee and pulls Ilya’s hand to rest between both of his own]
Cassie: What changed?
Ilya: Scott Hunter.
Luna: Oh, of course. The Stanley Cup Kiss.
[A still image of Scott Hunter kissing Kip Grady on the ice at the 2017 Stanley Cup final appears on the screen]
Cassie: Where were you both when that happened? Montreal had gotten knocked out in the first round, and Boston in the second.
Shane: Yeah, I was still in recovery from the concussion and the broken collar bone, so I was at my parents’ house in Ottawa. Ilya was in Boston.
Ilya: I was actually packing to go back to Moscow during that game. I did not want to, but I had always done it during the summer. I hoped that putting physical distance between me and Shane would help me get over him.
Shane: Then you shouldn’t have been texting me.
Ilya: You were texting me back. Very unhelpful. And then the game was called for the Admirals, and Scott Hunter took the Cup, and we know what happened next. Seeing him call down his boyfriend, his partner, and kiss him in front of the cameras, and his teammates, and the crowd, and the NHL Commissioner… it felt like I was being struck by lightning. If Scott Hunter, the oldest man in the league, the dinosaur of the NHL —
Shane: Oh my God, Ilya —
Ilya: — the captain who had just led his team to their first Stanley Cup in almost thirty years, could have that and have Kip, maybe I could have something too.
Luna: Hang on real quick. [reaches behind herself to a small box of tissues resting on a side table, and dabs at her eyes] Okay, I’m good. But damn, that representation do be mattering, huh?
Cassie: Can I ask what Hunter’s reaction was when you told him all of this?
Ilya: I did not.
Cassie: Excuse me? [laughs]
Ilya: He will find out if he listens to this, I think. If the volume settings on his phone go up high enough for him to catch it with his hearing aids.
Luna: Ilya Rozanov, you’re kind of a menace to society, aren’t you?
Ilya: Yes.
Shane: Jesus. Anyway. So we spent that summer together. It was the first time we were able to be together for longer than six hours at a time. So we figured out a plan for how we were going to make it work. Ilya met my parents, who now love him more than they love me, by the way, which is hurtful, and we started really thinking about the future.
Ilya: Is true. I am Yuna’s favorite son. Not only am I better at hockey, but I also gave her her first beautiful grandchild, Anya.
[an image of Anya Hollander-Rozanova appears on screen. Her tail is clearly mid-wag, and she has a bright pink bow tied around her neck]
Luna: This is not the point, by the way, but when are you going to get that dog her own Instagram account? Because I would follow it in a minute.
Ilya: I take my daughter’s internet safety very seriously, so not any time soon.
Shane: Please, Luna, he’s already dangerous on social media on his own accounts. He doesn’t need more of a platform.
Ilya: I cannot believe you are ashamed of our perfect daughter.
Cassie: Okay I love Anya as much as the next person, but can we please get back on track? [laughs] What did it mean, to plan for the future?
Shane: [sighs] There was a lot to balance. We wanted to be together, but we didn’t want to give up our careers, we shouldn’t have had to, and there was still the issue of Ilya’s citizenship. So what with the 2016 election in the US, the first priority was getting Ilya to Canada as soon as his contract with Boston ended. Ottawa was the best choice.
Luna: Wait, Shane, was it your idea for Ilya to go to Ottawa?
Ilya: It was his idea, yes. I would have gone anywhere for Shane, but he thought of Ottawa because of cap space, and proximity to Montreal. It made the most sense.
Luna: Were you bothered by going to a team that had one of the… least great records in the NHL?
Ilya: Not really. At the time the coaching staff was a mess, yes, but Zane Boodram and Evan Dykstra and Nick Chouinard have always been great players. Of course we did not know this at the time, but Brandon Wiebe is the best thing to have ever happened to this franchise, and we only had to wait a few more years to get him. Anyway, is not like Boston had been doing that well when I was drafted, but three years later we had a Stanley Cup.
Cassie: And the plan was for you to stay in Montreal, Shane? Were the two of you ever going to come out?
[pause]
Shane: That was the plan, yeah. I thought if we did it slowly, we could get the world ready for us to come out and be together when we retired. We started the Irina Foundation, both to really do some good, and also to get people used to the idea of us spending time together.
Cassie: It’s such a cool organization.
Shane: Thank you.
Ilya: It was also Shane’s idea, to name it after my mother and to partner with suicide prevention organizations.
Shane: Ilya is really the heart of the organization. He’s so good with the kids. He’s a great coach, and he’s always been better at getting other players to come in and work with us.
Luna: Okay, seriously, you guys gotta stop. This is too much.
Cassie: But of course the retirement plan isn’t what happened.
[pause. Shane stares at the floor for a moment. Ilya rubs the back of his neck]
Shane: I don’t know if it was ever going to, honestly. We were both only 26, and even then I thought we both could play for another ten years without slowing down. The last year that Ilya was in Boston was a nightmare, but we kept telling ourselves that it would be better once he was in Ottawa, and we were only two hours apart and didn’t have to go through fucking passport control to see each other. But even after he moved to Ottawa, it really, really wore on us, on our mental health. Ilya’s depression and my orthorexia both got pretty bad, even before this past spring.
Luna: We don’t talk enough about orthorexia, especially in male athletes. Do you feel okay getting into that? And again, we can always cut stuff.
Shane: No, you’re right, we need to talk about it more. [Shane takes a deep breath and leans back into Ilya’s hand on his neck.] Orthorexia is a form of disordered eating where you engage in restrictive eating patterns dressed up as an obsession with ‘healthy’ or ‘clean’ eating. And I feel like it’s really normalized in men’s professional sports, because like, yes, the body is the job, and you do have to take care of yourself if you’re going to perform, but it was getting to the point where it was consuming me. Every time I got invited to do something social, my first thought wasn’t, ‘I’m so happy to spend time with my friends,’ it was ‘will there be anything there I am allowed to eat?’
Cassie: Disordered eating is such a massive problem in professional sports, because like you’re saying, the body is the job, so it’s easy to become obsessed. But we’re more willing to identify it in women than in men, because we live in a world where we expect and encourage women to obsess over the size and shape of their bodies. And orthorexia in particular is complicated because there’s still not an official DSM definition or diagnostic protocol for it. But like… I’m an athlete, I grew up in these spaces, I have my own history with disordered eating —
Luna: Me too.
Cassie: It very much becomes a control thing. Like oh, I can control my gameplay if I never eat any refined sugar. Oh, I can get a handle on this passing sequence if I just cut carbs, because my body will perform better. And my life was pretty normal when I was playing competitively! You had a lot more going on that probably felt out of your control.
Shane: [clears throat] Yeah. I came out to the Voyageurs locker room after the 2020 Stanley Cup win, and it… didn’t go well as I told myself it did at the time. I’m not here to air out any personal grievances with other players, but it did… concern me enough to validate the part of the plan that would have kept me and Ilya from coming out until retirement.
Luna: Oh that sounds… really bad. We didn’t comment on this on the podcast at the time, but people who are really locked in to hockey knew that there were rumors going around starting that summer that you were gay and the team wasn’t taking it well.
Ilya: Unlike my husband, I am here to air out personal grievances with other players —
Shane: Ilya —
Ilya: No, let me say this. Montreal had not even made the playoffs for two years before they drafted Shane, and they had not won a Stanley Cup in over ten years before that. Then, they get Shane, they appear in the playoffs every single year that he is on their roster. His second year as captain, he wins them a Cup. His third year as captain, he wins them a cup. His fourth year as captain, he gets injured, they get knocked out of the playoffs in the first round. His fifth and sixth years as captain, they make it to the second round of the playoffs. His seventh year, another Cup. He built that franchise. He formed that dynasty. He led that locker room, he created a culture where nothing less than excellence would be tolerated. He was always polite and professional and humble and generous to the team when he spoke to the press. He treated them far better than they deserved, and for them to freeze him out over something that has nothing to do with his game play, after he trusted them with a part of his identity, is not something I will ever forget.
Shane: [releases one of his hands from where it is wrapped around Ilya’s to grip Ilya’s knee again] I think we get it.
Luna: Let him cook!
Ilya: Thank you, Luna. You are my favorite. Do we get it, Shane? Because you were the center of their coaching strategy. Theriault never had any plan beyond ‘get the puck to Hollander and let him go.’ That is not how a team should operate. Every team has star players, yes, but star players do not bear sole responsibility for the success of the franchise. You do not get to set up a player like that, and then fail him when it is convenient.
Shane: Aren’t you the guy who said he’d score fifty goals in his rookie season?
Ilya: And then I did score fifty goals in my rookie season. What does that have to do with anything?
[Cassie snorts.]
Luna: Ilya makes a great point, and commentators have been saying this for years. It’s been clear for a while that Theriault’s only priority was for other forwards to pass to Shane. That was actually one of the biggest tells after the whole FanMail thing that something was really, really wrong in the locker room. Nobody on offense except Pike was passing to Hollander anymore, but they didn’t know how to operate without prioritizing Hollander, which is why the gameplay fell apart. It didn’t help that the defensive line wasn’t covering him.
Ilya: Exactly this. The team did not support Shane. Shane carried the team. Shane carried them to the playoffs in 2021 even though he may as well have been alone out there. And it will be… interesting to see if Montreal can make it to the playoffs this year without him.
Cassie: Shane, you are bright red.
Shane: [leans towards Ilya. Quietly, almost off mic] Spasibo. [Facing Luna and Cassie again] I think Rozanov has said enough about that for both of us.
Luna: You’re no fun.
Ilya: Yes, very boring. But fine. I can be done now.
Cassie: As someone who obviously doesn’t know you personally, you both seem much, much happier this season than last. What’s changing with your mental health?
Shane: We’re both in therapy. Together and separately.
Ilya: I started therapy first, because I always beat Hollander —
Shane: For fuck’s sake —
Luna: Anybody who ever said this rivalry was fake is full of shit, oh my God.
Ilya: To be serious, therapy probably saved my life. That, and starting an antidepressant. I know there’s a lot of… Shane, what is the word for when the culture does not like it —
Shane: Stigma.
Ilya: Yes, thank you, stigma around mental health care for men, especially in spaces like the NHL. Russia is the same way. So it was difficult for me to admit to myself that I need it. But I do, and everything is so much easier now. Like I can breathe.
Luna: Congratulations, Ilya, really. That’s huge. Shane, what about you?
Shane: I’m newer to therapy. I only started when I moved to Ottawa. But Ilya’s right, it’s like
I can breathe. My therapist also recommended that we do couple’s counseling, not because anything is wrong, but to help us with our communication.
Luna: I feel like I know more and more couples who are doing that. Like maintenance counseling.
Shane: Yeah, it’s important. We went from a ‘normal’ in our relationship where it was like, a couple of hours here, a night there, phone calls when we could, and then during the summer we didn’t really have to be in public, to bring our relationship around people, if we didn’t want to. So we went from that to living together, working together, our relationship being a topic of public interest. It’s a different world. And we owe a lot to our care team.
Cassie: That’s really awesome, you guys. Thank you for being willing to talk about it.
Ilya: Is important.
Luna: I guess that brings us to the FanMail of it all.
Shane: I guess it does. But even before the FanMail incident, the ten-year plan was kind of fucked.
Cassie: Really?
Ilya: Yes. The plan became to get married and come out this past summer. Summer 2021.
Cassie: What changed this time?
[pause]
Shane: Do you remember when the Cens’ plane had that emergency landing in Tampa?
Luna: Oh my God, of course. That was so scary. It must have been awful, for both of you.
Shane: It wasn’t great, for sure. It was this… I couldn’t even get to him, because the Voyageurs were in Seattle at the time. I just had to wait until we were both back in Ottawa. It must have been like what it felt for him to see me get hit on the ice.
Ilya: I wanted him with me too. And to have to leave the building to pick up the phone when he called me… I hated it. More than I had ever hated it.
Shane: Everything that had seemed so important — how the commissioner’s office would react, both of our teammates, sponsorship income — mattered a whole lot less. Even Ilya’s immigration status… we were working on his eligibility to become a Canadian permanent resident as a skilled worker. And it would have been nice to have that completely resolved before we were outed, but even then, we were just so tired of hiding. Which I guess is where we were when the FanMail thing happened.
Cassie: I can’t imagine. Like if Sarah was in a fucking car accident or something, and I couldn’t get to her, and nobody knew to call me… I’d just start killing people, I think.
Shane: I considered it. Briefly, but I did consider it.
Luna: So FanMail Day. What was that day like for you?
Ilya: Relief. Some fear, yes, some… shame is not the right word, because I am not ashamed of loving this man, but it was an intimate moment that we had not wanted other people to see. But primarily, relief.
Shane: I would agree with that. It had been weighing on us so heavily, that by that point, even if every single thing I had been afraid of if we were outed were to happen, that would still be better than hiding anymore. I’m not going to pretend I didn’t spend most of the morning having panic attacks, because I did, but I had Ilya with me. And now we no longer could be caught in decision paralysis. The decision had been made for us, so our path forward was clear. I love him, he loves me, people know it, so, let’s handle that.
Cassie: So no bad blood between you and Hayden Pike?
Ilya: I would not go that far.
Shane: He loves Hayden, he’ll just never admit it. And Hayden loves him. Hayden actually figured out that I was in love with Ilya several years ago. He’s been a huge support.
Ilya: Eh.
[Shane lifts their joined hands on Ilya’s knee and swats Ilya before settling back down.]
Luna: I totally get what you’re saying about how even if all these awful things happened it would still be better than hiding anymore, but… it’s worth noting that it seems like a lot of those awful things did happen. It’s not like your fears were baseless. [glances down at her cards] We looked into it, and it seems like some ongoing sponsorships you had are no longer running. We’re not going to list them, and honestly this seems like it might be the least important part, but that was a thing that happened.
Shane: It’s just money.
Luna: For sure. But I imagine it’s going to be harder to get either of you to talk about these other two, so I wanted to start easy. There were, again, some extremely persistent rumors that the Voyageurs locker room got… I believe the technical term is ‘really fucking bad’ after that video came out. Is there anything you want to tell us about that?
Shane: I guess just that rumors are persistent for a reason.
[pause]
Cassie: Ilya, you look like you want to say something.
Ilya: I do, but I have to go home with him later.
Cassie: Fair! But Shane, your contract was up for renegotiation at the end of this past season anyway. You were going into free agency. Montreal announced that they weren’t resigning you. You have said, plenty of times over the years, that you loved Montreal, you loved the fans, you loved the team, you wanted to retire with that jersey. Was it really their decision to not resign you, or did they just beat you to releasing a statement?
Shane: I do love the city, and the fans. I love the team I was drafted into. But teams change, over time. You also grow up, and realize that cultures aren’t healthy just because you’re used to them. I’m not the same person I was at eighteen. If Montreal had offered to resign me, I might have said yes, but I had my agent reach out to Ottawa first.
Luna: Are you saying you only would have resigned with the Voyageurs if the Cens had turned you down?
Shane: Yes. It was the closest team to Ilya.
Luna: Damn.
Cassie: How is it that all roads lead to Ottawa, of all places?
Ilya: Ah, is a good city. Gets a bad rap.
Cassie: Can we talk about cap space for a minute? Because I know a lot of people had a lot to say about that when the signing was announced. Rozanov is expensive, Troy Barrett is expensive, Wyatt Hayes and Luca Haas are going to be expensive on their next negotiations if they keep playing like they’re playing now. I’m not asking how much, but Shane, did you take a pay cut to go to Ottawa?
Shane: Yeah. And I was happy to do it.
Ilya: He is a trophy husband now. A kept man. I am a sugar daddy.
[Cassie and Luna both scream with laughter]
Shane: Stop.
Ilya: I will not. I am very proud that I get to have the hottest, smartest NHL player on my team and as my husband. Is a big win for me, personally.
Shane: Oh my God.
Luna: I mean if the team keeps performing the way it is so far this season, cap space will probably increase pretty fast as more sponsors get interested.
Shane: Sure, but to be really clear, I’d play for free if it meant I got to be with Ilya. I’d quit hockey if it meant I got to be with Ilya. I would choose him over anything, including this job. He is the rest of my life. I’m going to grow old with him. I have loved hockey for a long time, and I’m getting to rediscover my love of it this season, but at the end of the day, it’s not the center of my universe. He is.
Luna: Bro you can’t just say shit like that with no warning. What the hell.
Ilya: Moya lyubov, you cannot go on a podcast and announce you would play for free. [turns to face the camera and pulls mic closer to his face] He will not play for free. He must be paid what he is worth. He is incredibly valuable and will be treated as such.
Shane: I thought I was a trophy husband.
Ilya: I am the only one allowed to make that joke. Certainly not the front office.
Cassie: Speaking of front offices…
Shane: No comment.
Cassie: Come on, let me at least ask the question first. The Athletic reported that a few days after the FanMail video was posted, both you and Ilya were seen entering the NHL head offices in Montreal, and then leaving again about half an hour later. Is there literally anything you can tell us about that meeting?
Shane: We don’t have any comment to make about that at this time. Right, Ilya?
Ilya: [sighs] Yes, yes, no comment, because I never get to do anything fun.
Shane: Exactly.
Luna: So you don’t have anything to say about the, again, very persistent rumors going around that Commissioner Crowell threatened both of you with expulsion from the league if you went through with your wedding this past summer?
Shane: Not at this time, no.
Luna: Ilya?
Ilya: You will notice that we are married and still playing. But fine, that is all.
Cassie: Shane said earlier that sometimes rumors are persistent for a reason.
Shane: Hmm.
Cassie: Ugh. That Yuna Hollander media training strikes again.
Ilya: I personally would never go against Yuna Hollander, or anyone she cares about, yes.
Luna: Fine. Getting back to stuff we can get Shane to talk about, what’s it like playing under Ilya’s captaincy? You said earlier that you were rediscovering your love of hockey this season, so does playing with Ilya have anything to do with that?
Shane: It has everything to do with that. Ilya is the best team captain I have ever seen or worked with. He works the team hard, constant drills, constant half-speed scrimmages, but also makes absolutely sure that everyone is regularly going to PT even when they think they don’t need it, or meeting with the dieticians, or taking notes during tape review. And he makes all of that fun. He makes it a labor of love. He cares about every single player on this team as a whole person — if anything is bothering anybody, he can almost sniff it out, and he can talk people through anything, and get them back to playing condition if that’s what’s best for them. He prioritizes the mental and physical wellbeing of players in a way I have never seen before. I have never seen a team love following a leader as much as this team loves following him. He understands that in order to be a captain worth following, he first has to be a good friend, and I can say personally he’s the best friend I’ve ever had.
Cassie: Ilya, are you blushing?
Ilya: Absolutely not. I do not blush. I am Russian.
Shane: I’m not done. The leadership of Ilya and Wiebe and Bood is the foundation of this team. We know that previous Cens leadership had an idea of what it meant to be a good hockey player, and only pushed players towards that one goal. Wiebe and Ilya work in the exact opposite way — seeing what players prioritize about themselves, and understanding how to fit all those pieces together into a sum greater than its parts. It’s amazing. It’s almost like alchemy.
Luna: I’m gonna fucking cry again. Holy shit.
Cassie: I guess that answers the question about if Shane is gonna try for the C in a couple of years.
Shane: Never. You don’t mess with perfection.
Ilya: [clears throat]. Even so. League rules say we can have up to two alternates, and right now Bood is only one. Something to think about for next year.
Shane: We’ll get there when we get there.
Luna: I also definitely hear what you’re saying about Wiebe working towards player strengths, and it brings up something else I really wanted to talk about. Hockey teams in general tend to think of offensive lines as being formed in, like, descending levels of talent. So your stars are on the first line, your good but not great players are on the second, and so on and so forth. But that’s not what’s going on in Ottawa this year. That first line is usually Rozanov at center, with Bood and Barrett in the wings, and the second line is usually Hollander at center, with Haas and LaPointe. Then we have Boyle, Holmberg, and Dillon.
Ilya: Right.
Luna: But I say usually, because you guys mix that up constantly. Wiebe seems more likely than most coaches to be willing to change a lineup just to fuck with the opposition, or based on what’s going on with the score. I’ve also never seen a coach more willing to move players around. Ilya, the few times this season that we’ve seen you on Shane’s wing have been the most gorgeous hockey I’ve ever seen played.
Ilya: Is not a… a hierarchy. This is the first team where I have ever played like this, and is great. Is not a ranking or anything like that. Is genuinely us asking the question, ‘what is best for this team in this play in this moment?’ And we have enough depth of talent and variety in play styles that we are able to do this. It keeps the pressure up, so is not like we put up our third line and the other team has an easy shot on goal. It confuses the other team, it makes the game more fun for us, it makes a better locker room. Everybody wins. Except the other team.
Luna: You love to see it.
Cassie: Is there a future where we see Shane Hollander play wing?
Shane: I’m working on it. I’m not good at it yet, so I don’t know if it’s going to happen this season.
Ilya: I would like to clarify. He is very good at it. But Shane Hollander’s standards for ‘good at it’ are higher than a normal person’s.
Cassie: I have no trouble whatsoever believing that.
Luna: So… who’s the better hockey player?
Cassie: We said we weren’t going to ask them that.
Luna: I felt the spirit move me. So?
Ilya: Me.
Shane: It depends on what criteria you’re paying attention to.
Ilya: What?
Shane: Look, Ilya has the most career goals, and he’s currently first in the scoring race for this season. But I have the most career points, and I’m up this season on assists. We’re both second on the respective lists. His play style is more aggressive, more creative, more unpredictable, and that really throws people off. Mine is just faster and more intentional, and I know that overwhelms other players. I’m really good at playing center, but I’m only good at playing center. He can play either left or right wing. He won the Cup first, but we’re still waiting on his Conn Smythe. Maybe this will be his year for it. He’d definitely deserve it.
Ilya: Fuck, Hollander, now I look like asshole.
Shane: To be fair, you are an asshole.
Ilya: True. And if I am not being asshole for just a minute, Shane is the better player. And that makes me want to be a better player too.
Cassie: That is better than any answer we could possibly have hoped for. You guys are so adorable. My God.
Luna: I can’t believe we’re at time. Okay. Wow.
Cassie: This has been so incredible.
Luna: I can’t get over the 2010 of it all, still.
Ilya: Me neither, sometimes. Shane has been with me, in my heart, for my full adult life.
Luna: Aww.
Cassie: I guess to close out… what’s next? For you two, and for the Ottawa Centaurs?
Shane: I think for both, it’s to play some damn good hockey. If this is coming out on Monday, then you can catch us hosting a string of home games this week, starting with San Jose tonight.
Ilya: Yes, and then next week, the first Ottawa - Montreal game of the season is coming. Should be fun.
Luna: Okay can I call that an evil smile?
Cassie: Yeah I think so. I love it.
Ilya: And then we will bring the Stanley Cup to Ottawa.
Shane: Ilya.
Ilya: You worry too much, Hollander. I keep telling you is not a jinx if it is true. Is it a jinx to say we will purchase iced coffee at airport? Is it a jinx to say the sun will rise in the east in the morning? No? Then is also not a jinx for me to say that we will bring the Stanley Cup to Ottawa.
Shane: If we don’t, I’m blaming you.
Ilya: I am happy to take that, because it will not matter, because we will bring the Stanley Cup to Ottawa.
[all laugh]
Luna: Last question. Any regrets?
Shane: I go back and forth on this one. Some days, it feels like we wasted a lot of time, and we hurt each other when we didn’t know any better, and I wish we hadn’t. But most days… I’m here. I have this beautiful man as my husband, we have our dog, we have our home, we get to play my favorite sport with the best group of guys I’ve ever met. It’s hard to have regrets when I’m here.
Ilya: None. I would do it all again to get to where we are, today, right now, in this podcast studio in LA, telling the world how much I love my husband and his freckles, with Shane’s parents at home taking care of our perfect daughter.
Luna: I swear to god this is the most I’ve ever cried in an interview.
Cassie: Ilya, Shane, thank you so, so much for reaching out and asking us to do this interview with you. This is also the most I’ve ever cried at work, but I also think it’s the most fun I’ve ever had doing this job. You both make it really, really easy to root for you.
Ilya: Ah, you are Cens fans now?
Cassie: For professional purposes, that’s not what I said.
Luna: But for real, thank you so much for trusting us with your story. I know there’s usually not just one moment where you ‘come out,’ unless you’re a public figure. Like most people do it over and over again, in different ways, whenever they enter a new context. So having it be one big moment, where now the whole world knows this about you whether you like it or not, can feel really violating.
Shane: It can. It did. But… we’re free now.
Ilya: There was something very powerful about it just becoming something true about each of us, and both of us together. I love him. That is the most important part of me. Everyone who knows me should know that.
Shane: Exactly that.
Cassie: I’m a genuine believer in the idea that every time you enter a room and don’t see yourself, it still matters because somebody sees you, and knows that they can live honestly. And you’re both doing that. Not just in being outed, which, it’s terrible to have that choice taken away from you, but in every move you’ve made since then. Continuing to show up and be authentic and open and kind.
Shane: That means a lot. Thank you so much for having us.
Ilya: Yes. Thank you. And thank you for doing what you do on this show.
[End transcript]